tithing

[Pastor Bill]

It really depends on the individual situation of the heart.

Are you talking about someone who doesn't tithe but does give cheerfully and freely?

Are you talking about someone who doesn't tithe but gives sparingly?

Are you talking about someone who doesn't tithe and doesn't give at all?

Take your pick.

I'm really just replying to Dawgs comment that 10% is a "required minimum". If so what does he believe is the consequence for not hitting the minimum. According to a "required minimum" it wouldn't matter why you didn't do it. Waiting to here that from him I guess.

WHile you are waiting you also seem to be avoiding the questions I have posed, and now these that Scooter has as well. I would venture to say Dawg's answer will probably be fairly close to what we've all told you before, but I do hope he provides it just to get you to move on to the questions posed to you.

[dawgs10]

there is no thou shalt tithe command.

but there is a thread from Genesis THROUGH the NT that is a positive teaching about it in giving.

why do we need a command to do whats right. see, this within itself is a lesson in grace. i dont have to be commanded to do right because of relationship not religion. but grace and relationship does not give me the right to ignore what is right. thats what matthew 23:23 is saying. woe unto you, scribes and pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: now here comes the teaching moment, wait for it!!!! THESE OUGHT YE TO HAVE DONE, AND NOT TO LEAVE THE OTHER UNDONE. in other words do both. do it the right way with the right intentions.

do both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats what Jesus said. i dont get. i dont get the disconnect. wow.

So what are the consequences of not "paying tithes"?

What are the consequences for not doing anything that God has asked? Or are there no consequences for anything?

You guys are killin' me here!! What is the answer to the question? If Dawgs says it is a "requirement", what happens to people who don't do it? What would you tell a member or attendee in your church ?

I believe I've answered that multiple times, will you answer this one that I just asked?

But just to satisfy you AGAIN...I would explain to them that tithing is a standard of giving God has provided, trusting God's wisdom in this and giving Him control in your finances will be a blessing.

Now back to the question I asked you, since you seem to want to focus on consequences...What are the consequences for not doing anything that God has asked? Or are there no consequences for anything?

thats my answer.

[RamboPreacher]

...

So what are the consequences of not "paying tithes"?

must everything be black and white,, or a checklist for you?

what is the consequences of smoking a cigarette? (spiritually speaking, not physically). same thing. there is no "thou shalt not smoke a fag" (dating myself). there is no "thou shalt pay tithe" command. so whats the consequence of disobedience of either that is not specifically commanded. whats the consequences of not being baptized?

question backatcha.

[lance82]

Now back to the question I asked you, since you seem to want to focus on consequences...What are the consequences for not doing anything that God has asked? Or are there no consequences for anything?

As I look back at the start of this thread, I see it was a call to honestly discuss tithing. That is what I am trying to do here. I ask pointed questions regarding it and I get answers in the form of questions. I understand how you feel, I get what your posts are saying. We all know what the punishment for sin is. We all know what the wages are. The question here is specifically regarding tithes.

Since the 10% is a minimum requirement according to Dawgs10. What happens to the people who don't pay up? Simple enough. This question is for him alone. Please stop jumping in to help him avoid answering it. Unless you feel the same way and have an answer.
It seems that everyone wants to say that they are not legalistic about it but then, in a round about way, say they are without really saying it.

Pastor Bill, the question for you is... what would you tell someone attending your church if asked the same question?

Rambo, seems you want to do the same. I didn't make the statement that 10% was a requirement. If that is the case, not doing it must be a sin....period. If it is then the wages of not doing it are death, hell, eternal separation from God....

Dawgs, is that what you are saying?

[dawgs10]

Now back to the question I asked you, since you seem to want to focus on consequences...What are the consequences for not doing anything that God has asked? Or are there no consequences for anything?

As I look back at the start of this thread, I see it was a call to honestly discuss tithing. That is what I am trying to do here. I as pointed questions regarding it and I get answers in the form of questions. I understand how you feel, I get what your posts are saying. We all know what the punishment for sin is. We all know what the wages are. The question here is specifically regarding tithes.

Since the 10% is a minimum requirement according to Dawgs10. What happens to the people who don't pay up? Simple enough. This question is for him alone. Please stop jumping in to help him avoid answering it. Unless you feel the same way and have an answer.
It seems that everyone wants to say that they are not legalistic about it but then, in a round about way, say they are without really saying it.

Pastor Bill, the question for you is... what would you tell someone attending your church if asked the same question?

Rambo, seems you want to do the same. I didn't make the statement that 10% was a requirement. If that is the case, not doing it must be a sin....period. If it is then the wages of not doing it are death, hell, eternal separation from God....

Dawgs, is that what you are saying?[/quot

there is alot of things in the Bible that is the will of God. tithes is one of them based on Jesus statement in matt. 23. we are required as Christians to be in the will of God. i does not make some actions or lack of action a sin. but it does prevent us from being in the will of God. thats all the answer you are gonna get so stop asking. now time for me to ask the questions. do you pick and choice everything you dont agree with that is clearly in the word of God? just answer yes or no.

[dolfan]

Jesus said in Matthew 26:18-20, "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Question: If a believer fails to get baptized, do the ones who "made a disciple" of that person fail God in the sense of consequence that separates them from God for eternity? What of the one who is not baptized? What if there is a really, really GOOD reason for his not being baptized? (I've known of a few people who were terminally ill with cancer in the hospital who were saved in their last days and weeks but who were not baptized in water.)

Yet, Jesus said "baptize them". In the same statement ..... in much closer proximity to anything He ever said about tithes, He said, "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you" (which, IMO, would include right instruction on faithful giving).

I doubt any of us would read Jesus' statement that is EMPHATIC as being a baptismal test of salvation. Maybe some of us would. What I haven't seen, though, is anyone here who would, in spite of their most passionate and well-considered views on tithing, call it a "test of salvation". So, when we speak of a "requirement", be it baptism or tithing, let us not be drawn into a false "heaven or hell" dichotomy about the consequences of failing in that requirement. In some, maybe many, instances, the dilemma could be what you might call "eternally determinative" like that; but, that would mean (IMO) questioning one's ever having been a believer, which seems far more likely to me to be the real issue here.

In other, shorter words, I need to ask myself and you need to ask yourself and the church needs to humbly stand on the authority given to it by God Almighty and ask --- "Am I a follower of Jesus or am I not?" If I answer "yes", I need to be prepared and preparing to pay the price for that decision, and there is a price. It is my whole life.

(Oh, my, I just learned something about myself.....not good.) Seriously. If I tithe, or if I am baptized, or if I am faithful in so many deeds and works, but if I am withholding my service in someway (and, we're capable of really contorting ourselves around justifications and what look like good reasons for doing or not doing things), have I not then violated the most elementary aspect of His commands?? The questions go so much deeper within us than simply tithing or not. I would confess that I have not always been faithful on tithing. But, as that was the case, I was also more not faithful in other matters.

I can see in my life a clearer relationship between financial faithfulness to God and a starkly improved view of my other shortcomings so that I might know whereof I NEED to repent and grow and change and transform and obey. This takes time, or it does/has for me.

[Pastor Bill]

Now back to the question I asked you, since you seem to want to focus on consequences...What are the consequences for not doing anything that God has asked? Or are there no consequences for anything?

As I look back at the start of this thread, I see it was a call to honestly discuss tithing. That is what I am trying to do here. I as pointed questions regarding it and I get answers in the form of questions. I understand how you feel, I get what your posts are saying. We all know what the punishment for sin is. We all know what the wages are. The question here is specifically regarding tithes.

Since the 10% is a minimum requirement according to Dawgs10. What happens to the people who don't pay up? Simple enough. This question is for him alone. Please stop jumping in to help him avoid answering it. Unless you feel the same way and have an answer.
It seems that everyone wants to say that they are not legalistic about it but then, in a round about way, say they are without really saying it.

Pastor Bill, the question for you is... what would you tell someone attending your church if asked the same question?

Rambo, seems you want to do the same. I didn't make the statement that 10% was a requirement. If that is the case, not doing it must be a sin....period. If it is then the wages of not doing it are death, hell, eternal separation from God....

Dawgs, is that what you are saying?

Lance I've answered that question, openly and honestly, so have many others, yet you say we're dodging your questions when you are not only avoiding ours, but ignoring the answers we give.

As you stated the beginning of this thread asked for "open and honest" discussion, you don't seem to be willing to do that. We have openly and honestly answered your questions, would you kindly consider answering ours, or if you are not willing to discuss this in any manner other than specifically pointing out what you want to and avoiding any questions that might shoot holes in your argument, then just admit that and drop the discussion, by avoiding you are doing more to hurt the points you are trying to make than help them.

[lance82]

there is alot of things in the Bible that is the will of God. tithes is one of them based on Jesus statement in matt. 23. we are required as Christians to be in the will of God. i does not make some actions or lack of action a sin. but it does prevent us from being in the will of God. thats all the answer you are gonna get so stop asking. now time for me to ask the questions. do you pick and choice everything you dont agree with that is clearly in the word of God? just answer yes or no.

No. I strive daily to walk in the light He has shown me. What I don't fully understand, I strive to get the answers. Then accept and live with what He reveals to me.
The will of God is a different thing in the life of all believers. I am not talking about outright sin here, for those of you who will stamp "gracer" on me. I mean... "called to preach", but not yet doing so... or not reading and studying to show yourself approved... or having anger issues and not dealing with them... should I work at company A or company B... should I lose this extra 80 lbs I'm carrying around... etc. For some people these issues are sin because God is speaking to them and they choose to ignore Him. For others they are still sorting out what voice they are hearing and wanting to do the right thing. I do not believe that NT "requirements" for Salvation fall into the same category. There is no grey area there.
You stated that it was a requirement. Are you now saying that you don't believe it to be a sin... therefore no consequences? If not, then why would one need to pay interest and make up past tithes they didn't pay?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here. However, we need to be able to defend what we believe so that we will be able to make others understand. If someone was in your church and you were teaching or discussing tithing and they wanted answers, simply making a statement such as "10% is a minimum requirement" is no good if it can't be supported by scripture.

thats all the answer you are gonna get so stop asking

That type of reply will turn off more young Christians and unbelievers that you will ever hope to win. 1Peter 3:15 says, "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect".

Peace!

[lance82]

Jesus said in Matthew 26:18-20, "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Question: If a believer fails to get baptized, do the ones who "made a disciple" of that person fail God in the sense of consequence that separates them from God for eternity? What of the one who is not baptized? What if there is a really, really GOOD reason for his not being baptized? (I've known of a few people who were terminally ill with cancer in the hospital who were saved in their last days and weeks but who were not baptized in water.)

Yet, Jesus said "baptize them". In the same statement ..... in much closer proximity to anything He ever said about tithes, He said, "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you" (which, IMO, would include right instruction on faithful giving).

I doubt any of us would read Jesus' statement that is EMPHATIC as being a baptismal test of salvation. Maybe some of us would. What I haven't seen, though, is anyone here who would, in spite of their most passionate and well-considered views on tithing, call it a "test of salvation". So, when we speak of a "requirement", be it baptism or tithing, let us not be drawn into a false "heaven or hell" dichotomy about the consequences of failing in that requirement. In some, maybe many, instances, the dilemma could be what you might call "eternally determinative" like that; but, that would mean (IMO) questioning one's ever having been a believer, which seems far more likely to me to be the real issue here.

In other, shorter words, I need to ask myself and you need to ask yourself and the church needs to humbly stand on the authority given to it by God Almighty and ask --- "Am I a follower of Jesus or am I not?" If I answer "yes", I need to be prepared and preparing to pay the price for that decision, and there is a price. It is my whole life.

(Oh, my, I just learned something about myself.....not good.) Seriously. If I tithe, or if I am baptized, or if I am faithful in so many deeds and works, but if I am withholding my service in someway (and, we're capable of really contorting ourselves around justifications and what look like good reasons for doing or not doing things), have I not then violated the most elementary aspect of His commands?? The questions go so much deeper within us than simply tithing or not. I would confess that I have not always been faithful on tithing. But, as that was the case, I was also more not faithful in other matters.

I can see in my life a clearer relationship between financial faithfulness to God and a starkly improved view of my other shortcomings so that I might know whereof I NEED to repent and grow and change and transform and obey. This takes time, or it does/has for me.

I'm in agreement with you here Brother.

We give all we can, until it hurts sometimes. Commendable, No. Need to hurt more. We exceed the "tithe" always. Commendable? No. I take no pride in either. Want only to do more and hate that I can't financially. On the other hand there is much more that I can do with my time than just the time I do now. A constant reminder of what I am not.

"Am I a follower of Jesus or am I not?"

One that we all need to hit the ground on every day!!!

The concern for me in this whole thread is the people who don't know our Father. How do we present Him to them. Do they find Him attractive or distasteful because of us/the message we send out? Anyone can go back and reread my posts. Are we able to answer their questions and back them with scripture?
Maybe I'm wrong for asking for backup or clarification from some. I just feel that it is important to have answers for why we feel the way we do on the tough issues.

Thanks for you reply.

[dawgs10]

there is alot of things in the Bible that is the will of God. tithes is one of them based on Jesus statement in matt. 23. we are required as Christians to be in the will of God. i does not make some actions or lack of action a sin. but it does prevent us from being in the will of God. thats all the answer you are gonna get so stop asking. now time for me to ask the questions. do you pick and choice everything you dont agree with that is clearly in the word of God? just answer yes or no.

No. I strive daily to walk in the light He has shown me. What I don't fully understand, I strive to get the answers. Then accept and live with what He reveals to me.
The will of God is a different thing in the life of all believers. I am not talking about outright sin here, for those of you who will stamp "gracer" on me. I mean... "called to preach", but not yet doing so... or not reading and studying to show yourself approved... or having anger issues and not dealing with them... should I work at company A or company B... should I lose this extra 80 lbs I'm carrying around... etc. For some people these issues are sin because God is speaking to them and they choose to ignore Him. For others they are still sorting out what voice they are hearing and wanting to do the right thing. I do not believe that NT "requirements" for Salvation fall into the same category. There is no grey area there.
You stated that it was a requirement. Are you now saying that you don't believe it to be a sin... therefore no consequences? If not, then why would one need to pay interest and make up past tithes they didn't pay?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here. However, we need to be able to defend what we believe so that we will be able to make others understand. If someone was in your church and you were teaching or discussing tithing and they wanted answers, simply making a statement such as "10% is a minimum requirement" is no good if it can't be supported by scripture.

thats all the answer you are gonna get so stop asking

That type of reply will turn off more young Christians and unbelievers that you will ever hope to win. 1Peter 3:15 says, "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect".

Peace!

again thats my answer. i have answered ten different times. we are required to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. one of those teachings as found in matt. 23 is that we continue to tithe. is it a sin if you dont? the Bible does not say that. The Bible does say that Jesus would for us to tithe. no consequences other than the fact that you are not following the teachings of Christ. is it a sin not to tithe? i dont see that. is it required if you want to be in the will of God. yes. its in the Bible. the red letters.

[lance82]

Now back to the question I asked you, since you seem to want to focus on consequences...What are the consequences for not doing anything that God has asked? Or are there no consequences for anything?

As I look back at the start of this thread, I see it was a call to honestly discuss tithing. That is what I am trying to do here. I as pointed questions regarding it and I get answers in the form of questions. I understand how you feel, I get what your posts are saying. We all know what the punishment for sin is. We all know what the wages are. The question here is specifically regarding tithes.

Since the 10% is a minimum requirement according to Dawgs10. What happens to the people who don't pay up? Simple enough. This question is for him alone. Please stop jumping in to help him avoid answering it. Unless you feel the same way and have an answer.
It seems that everyone wants to say that they are not legalistic about it but then, in a round about way, say they are without really saying it.

Pastor Bill, the question for you is... what would you tell someone attending your church if asked the same question?

Rambo, seems you want to do the same. I didn't make the statement that 10% was a requirement. If that is the case, not doing it must be a sin....period. If it is then the wages of not doing it are death, hell, eternal separation from God....

Dawgs, is that what you are saying?

Lance I've answered that question, openly and honestly, so have many others, yet you say we're dodging your questions when you are not only avoiding ours, but ignoring the answers we give.

As you stated the beginning of this thread asked for "open and honest" discussion, you don't seem to be willing to do that. We have openly and honestly answered your questions, would you kindly consider answering ours, or if you are not willing to discuss this in any manner other than specifically pointing out what you want to and avoiding any questions that might shoot holes in your argument, then just admit that and drop the discussion, by avoiding you are doing more to hurt the points you are trying to make than help them.

Brother, what have I not answered? What questions that might shoot holes in my arguments? My only argument in the last few posts is that my question has not been answered. I appears that Dawgs10 has now done so with an answer that would be a hard sell to an unbeliever(or mature believer for that matter)...

again thats my answer. i have answered ten different times. we are required to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. one of those teachings as found in matt. 23 is that we continue to tithe. is it a sin if you dont? the Bible does not say that. The Bible does say that Jesus would for us to tithe. no consequences other than the fact that you are not following the teachings of Christ. is it a sin not to tithe? i dont see that. is it required if you want to be in the will of God. yes. its in the Bible. the red letters.

...and you say you have too so I will re-read the thread, stop and be done with this, unless you need something more from me.

Peace!

[Pastor Bill]

there is alot of things in the Bible that is the will of God. tithes is one of them based on Jesus statement in matt. 23. we are required as Christians to be in the will of God. i does not make some actions or lack of action a sin. but it does prevent us from being in the will of God. thats all the answer you are gonna get so stop asking. now time for me to ask the questions. do you pick and choice everything you dont agree with that is clearly in the word of God? just answer yes or no.

No. I strive daily to walk in the light He has shown me. What I don't fully understand, I strive to get the answers. Then accept and live with what He reveals to me.
The will of God is a different thing in the life of all believers. I am not talking about outright sin here, for those of you who will stamp "gracer" on me. I mean... "called to preach", but not yet doing so... or not reading and studying to show yourself approved... or having anger issues and not dealing with them... should I work at company A or company B... should I lose this extra 80 lbs I'm carrying around... etc. For some people these issues are sin because God is speaking to them and they choose to ignore Him. For others they are still sorting out what voice they are hearing and wanting to do the right thing. I do not believe that NT "requirements" for Salvation fall into the same category. There is no grey area there.
You stated that it was a requirement. Are you now saying that you don't believe it to be a sin... therefore no consequences? If not, then why would one need to pay interest and make up past tithes they didn't pay?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here. However, we need to be able to defend what we believe so that we will be able to make others understand. If someone was in your church and you were teaching or discussing tithing and they wanted answers, simply making a statement such as "10% is a minimum requirement" is no good if it can't be supported by scripture.

thats all the answer you are gonna get so stop asking

That type of reply will turn off more young Christians and unbelievers that you will ever hope to win. 1Peter 3:15 says, "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect".

Peace!

Lance, this is the problem, you are straining at the word "requirement" No one here is advocating this as a requirement for salvation, but 10% is what is required to be considered tithing, that's the definition of the word. The examples you gave above are things that we SHOULD do as Christians, and yes the Bible does refer to not doing those things as sin (James 4:17) but as you I do not see these things as preventing our salvation, God's grace is sufficient and He gives us time to grow in Him. Of course plain refusing to follow God it can get to the point that our relationship with Him is in question, but I can't draw that line, We are to rest in His Grace while working to follow His will in all areas of our lives.

Basically I see tithes no differently, and as I've stated many times, I teach it no differently. Will God send us to hell for not tithing (or any of those things you listed, or many more that you haven't)? No, but it's His will that we are obedient in ALL things. Are these things required of us? Yes, God requires our obedience, but not in a legalistic manner or as a "NT requirement for salvation" In fact you seem to feel there is a separate category that ARE requirements for salvation, personally I see only one...Acceptance of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

So in short, are we required to be obedient? YES is our salvation dependent on that obedience? NO, thank God because none of us are perfect enough to earn it.

[Pastor Bill]

Now back to the question I asked you, since you seem to want to focus on consequences...What are the consequences for not doing anything that God has asked? Or are there no consequences for anything?

As I look back at the start of this thread, I see it was a call to honestly discuss tithing. That is what I am trying to do here. I as pointed questions regarding it and I get answers in the form of questions. I understand how you feel, I get what your posts are saying. We all know what the punishment for sin is. We all know what the wages are. The question here is specifically regarding tithes.

Since the 10% is a minimum requirement according to Dawgs10. What happens to the people who don't pay up? Simple enough. This question is for him alone. Please stop jumping in to help him avoid answering it. Unless you feel the same way and have an answer.
It seems that everyone wants to say that they are not legalistic about it but then, in a round about way, say they are without really saying it.

Pastor Bill, the question for you is... what would you tell someone attending your church if asked the same question?

Rambo, seems you want to do the same. I didn't make the statement that 10% was a requirement. If that is the case, not doing it must be a sin....period. If it is then the wages of not doing it are death, hell, eternal separation from God....

Dawgs, is that what you are saying?

Lance I've answered that question, openly and honestly, so have many others, yet you say we're dodging your questions when you are not only avoiding ours, but ignoring the answers we give.

As you stated the beginning of this thread asked for "open and honest" discussion, you don't seem to be willing to do that. We have openly and honestly answered your questions, would you kindly consider answering ours, or if you are not willing to discuss this in any manner other than specifically pointing out what you want to and avoiding any questions that might shoot holes in your argument, then just admit that and drop the discussion, by avoiding you are doing more to hurt the points you are trying to make than help them.

Brother, what have I not answered? What questions that might shoot holes in my arguments? My only argument in the last few posts is that my question has not been answered. I appears that Dawgs10 has now done so with an answer that would be a hard sell to an unbeliever(or mature believer for that matter)...

again thats my answer. i have answered ten different times. we are required to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. one of those teachings as found in matt. 23 is that we continue to tithe. is it a sin if you dont? the Bible does not say that. The Bible does say that Jesus would for us to tithe. no consequences other than the fact that you are not following the teachings of Christ. is it a sin not to tithe? i dont see that. is it required if you want to be in the will of God. yes. its in the Bible. the red letters.

...and you say you have too so I will re-read the thread, stop and be done with this, unless you need something more from me.

Peace!

The questions you had not answered were right at the top of what you quoted. But in your last response you finally hit on the point I was trying to get you to, you do believe there are things as Christians we should do, you even listed many, and you said you did not feel they were requirements for salvation, but they are the will of God in our lives.

I 100% agree, and one of those is tithing. I don't push it as anything more than that, and it's not a main point in my ministry, but it is God's will, and I don't believe we have to change that to get the message of salvation across to those that need it.

Frankly if you are pushing tithing OR giving to someone who needs to find Christ, you're getting the cart before the horse! Our message is not and should never be a message of requirements, because the only requirement for salvation is accepting what Christ has done for you freely. Tithing is a part of discipleship, no different than church attendance, bible study, prayer, giving, helping, witnessing, all these are things that as Christians we should do, and at times we need reminded that these should be standard things in our lives, doing God's will should be our standard of living. This is not being legalistic, but the core of discipleship is being a disciple, the core of the word itself is akin to the same core as discipline. Legalistically many try to "whip people into shape" that's not discipline, that's force without love, but discipline comes first from within, and God builds that in us first, His Spirit will lead in that, but will also use ministers, teachers, brothers and sisters to remind us and hold us accountable.

You are correct if we are pushing these things first, then we are wrong and our message won't be received. In fact even a salvation message won't be received if we are pushing it, the work MUST start from within as the Spirit draws them, and we, being led by that selfsame spirit confirm and affirm that work. At times we don't like for someone to confirm our convictions (neither do those that are running from salvation) but if we are listening to the Spirit, we realize that even when it's difficult, the Truth sets us free.

[lance82]

Lance, this is the problem, you are straining at the word "requirement" No one here is advocating this as a requirement for salvation

Thanks for the answer.

The examples you gave above are things that we SHOULD do as Christians, and yes the Bible does refer to not doing those things as sin (James 4:17) but as you I do not see these things as preventing our salvation, God's grace is sufficient and He gives us time to grow in Him. Of course plain refusing to follow God it can get to the point that our relationship with Him is in question, but I can't draw that line, We are to rest in His Grace while working to follow His will in all areas of our lives.

Amen!

Basically I see tithes no differently, and as I've stated many times, I teach it no differently. Will God send us to hell for not tithing (or any of those things you listed, or many more that you haven't)? No, but it's His will that we are obedient in ALL things. Are these things required of us? Yes, God requires our obedience, but not in a legalistic manner or as a "NT requirement for salvation" In fact you seem to feel there is a separate category that ARE requirements for salvation, personally I see only one...Acceptance of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I too see only Acceptance of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as a requirement for Salvation.

In fact you seem to feel there is a separate category that ARE requirements for salvation

I'm not sure where this came from. The opposite is what I have been espousing the whole time.

So in short, are we required to be obedient? YES is our salvation dependent on that obedience? NO, thank God because none of us are perfect enough to earn it.

Again, thanks for the answer.

Peace!

[lance82]

Frankly if you are pushing tithing OR giving to someone who needs to find Christ, you're getting the cart before the horse!

Amen!! If we teach it or preach it as a requirement and sinners are in the crowd, I'm sure they hear it though. That's my point. And I continue to get this message from HQ everytime it is "stewardship month".... and so does the whole growd... saved and unsaved alike. The "curse" is still preached. "Robbing God" is still preached. Tithing on everything from insurance benefits to final estate is preached. Tithing on gross vs. net... preached. There in lies the rub for me. What do the unchurched/unsaved gain from this? A not so graceful grace.

Our message is not and should never be a message of requirements, because the only requirement for salvation is accepting what Christ has done for you freely. Tithing is a part of discipleship, no different than church attendance, bible study, prayer, giving, helping, witnessing, all these are things that as Christians we should do, and at times we need reminded that these should be standard things in our lives, doing God's will should be our standard of living. This is not being legalistic, but the core of discipleship is being a disciple, the core of the word itself is akin to the same core as discipline. Legalistically many try to "whip people into shape" that's not discipline, that's force without love, but discipline comes first from within, and God builds that in us first, His Spirit will lead in that, but will also use ministers, teachers, brothers and sisters to remind us and hold us accountable.

Amen to most. Remember, I chose to agree to disagree as to whether or not tithing = discipleship. Giving as led and cheerfully doing so is where I land. Not arguing that point here. Agreeing with you on the rest.

You are correct if we are pushing these things first, then we are wrong and our message won't be received. In fact even a salvation message won't be received if we are pushing it, the work MUST start from within as the Spirit draws them, and we, being led by that selfsame spirit confirm and affirm that work. At times we don't like for someone to confirm our convictions (neither do those that are running from salvation) but if we are listening to the Spirit, we realize that even when it's difficult, the Truth sets us free.

Amen!

Bless you brother!