tithing

[Pastor Bill]

In fact you seem to feel there is a separate category that ARE requirements for salvation

I'm not sure where this came from. The opposite is what I have been espousing the whole time.

it came from your statement that said "I do not believe that NT "requirements" for Salvation fall into the same category." I assumed you meant only that these were not requirements for salvation (which I myself stated tithing was not probably back about page 1 of this thread). But this was the first time you admitted there are "things" (since I can't use the word requirement, standard, rule, or much of anything else without getting jumped on) that God wills in our lives, and we SHOULD be doing those things. That is all we have said of tithing for 18 pages.

Where are disagreement has been is you have pushed that this is something that we should not do, or at least should not teach others to do. I believe you have pushed this out of a misunderstanding of the emphasis we put on tithing. No one here is pushing it as a requirement for salvation. But to say that it is wrong, or wrong to teach it as a solid biblical principle of something we SHOULD do, is just not correct.

[Pastor Bill]

Frankly if you are pushing tithing OR giving to someone who needs to find Christ, you're getting the cart before the horse!

Amen!! If we teach it or preach it as a requirement and sinners are in the crowd, I'm sure they hear it though. That's my point. And I continue to get this message from HQ everytime it is "stewardship month".... and so does the whole growd... saved and unsaved alike. The "curse" is still preached. "Robbing God" is still preached. Tithing on everything from insurance benefits to final estate is preached. Tithing on gross vs. net... preached. There in lies the rub for me. What do the unchurched/unsaved gain from this? A not so graceful grace.

so we should never preach or teach on what a person SHOULD do? that doesn't make sense. No one is teaching this as a requirement for salvation, no one I've heard, and even those that are really pushing it don't go that far. You are reading way more into it than you should. Frankly we need to be careful trying to shape our message to much around "who might hear" if we are preaching the truth, God will take care of the rest. I have seem more "faithful members" turned off by preaching tithing because they are not faithful in this matter than I ever have the lost. At the same time to avoid preaching and teaching on matters that are our responsibilities as Christians (the things we SHOULD do) in order not to offend someone is basically watering down the message, and does not lead to faithfulness in following where God is leading.

Our message is not and should never be a message of requirements, because the only requirement for salvation is accepting what Christ has done for you freely. Tithing is a part of discipleship, no different than church attendance, bible study, prayer, giving, helping, witnessing, all these are things that as Christians we should do, and at times we need reminded that these should be standard things in our lives, doing God's will should be our standard of living. This is not being legalistic, but the core of discipleship is being a disciple, the core of the word itself is akin to the same core as discipline. Legalistically many try to "whip people into shape" that's not discipline, that's force without love, but discipline comes first from within, and God builds that in us first, His Spirit will lead in that, but will also use ministers, teachers, brothers and sisters to remind us and hold us accountable.

Amen to most. Remember, I chose to agree to disagree as to whether or not tithing = discipleship. Giving as led and cheerfully doing so is where I land. Not arguing that point here. Agreeing with you on the rest.

I'm not saying tithing = discipleship, tithing is just a small part, one thing we should do, discipleship is much more important than just tithing.

[lance82]

so we should never preach or teach on what a person SHOULD do? that doesn't make sense. No one is teaching this as a requirement for salvation, no one I've heard, and even those that are really pushing it don't go that far. You are reading way more into it than you should. Frankly we need to be careful trying to shape our message to much around "who might hear" if we are preaching the truth, God will take care of the rest. I have seem more "faithful members" turned off by preaching tithing because they are not faithful in this matter than I ever have the lost. At the same time to avoid preaching and teaching on matters that are our responsibilities as Christians (the things we SHOULD do) in order not to offend someone is basically watering down the message, and does not lead to faithfulness in following where God is leading.

Never said that! Re-read what I said. I specifically was commenting on tithing. Preaching against sin and for discipled lives, including faithful stewardship, is of the utmost importance. I have issue with tithing being preached in the ways I have mentioned before. To do so leads opposite of what you state here...

Our message is not and should never be a message of requirements, because the only requirement for salvation is accepting what Christ has done for you freely.

Peace brother!
Agreeing to disagree!
Lance

[Full Quiver]

This weekend our church had a huge event. Friday was Fall Fest with 15,000 in attendance. Inflatable jumpers, games, candy, laser lights, hotdogs, etc. all for the kids of the church & community.

Saturday and Sunday 3 services were held where the pastor presented an illustrated sermon titles the wife of Frankenstein. The sermon was targeting man's creation, what happens when man plays God especially in the sense of playing church. It was a great message that all Christians should hear in my opinion. It denounced religion and pointed towards Christ doing the work individually in the hearts of men, women, & children.

Before the sermon when normally the offering is received the pastor said, as the ushers were getting together to take up the offering, that he felt lead of the Lord to do something different. He said I don't want anyone to put any money in the buckets. I want the buckets passed in order to receive the visitors cards but no money.

Take this week's tithe & offering and go and do something good for someone with it. If your check is already made out to the church then rewrite it, rip it up, but don't give it to the church. Go out and make an impact in someone's life with that.

He said now the board is probably cringing because normally on a Saturday we receive $50-55,000 in tithes & offerings. He said I know we just fired up a satellite campus in Bowling Green where we spent thousands of $$$ in construction and promotion (with 300-500 in attendance already in 4 weeks) and we spent all this $$$ on the set and promotion for this weekends illustrated sermon (really nice set, costumes, etc.) as well as the fall fest. There were at least 50 inflatables there, at least.

That was a bold move to which I applaud Pastor Davis for. I've not met a pastor that would do such.

[MacUser]

And thus this mixture of covenants equals this confusion..

This is the perfect example of using grace as a behavioral cloak.

Sorry.. I was away.. deadlines, deadlines.

Now.. * cracking knuckles* lol...
If by Grace my brother you mean Romans 5:17.. then that IS me 100%. Seriously... Is this a cloak? Or have you not received what is freely yours as well? I am not the one hiding brother anything or manipulating anyone here. If you ARE embracing that.. or applying a code of conduct BEFORE God will bless you, forgive you, unmerited favoring, loving... it's witchcraft. I didn't write this....

Romans 5:17 (New International Version)

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Are you reigning in your personal life? Jesus said I require MERCY and not Sacrifice to the religious group of HIS DAY ( man I could expound on this ). Brother.... do we not all need to understand that!!

You will give to your Father from Love and not fear. If done in Fear or manipulation of it.... it's stinking dead works.

Romans 8

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Behold the LAMB!
Awesome!! WHoo Hoo..

[Pastor Bill]

so we should never preach or teach on what a person SHOULD do? that doesn't make sense. No one is teaching this as a requirement for salvation, no one I've heard, and even those that are really pushing it don't go that far. You are reading way more into it than you should. Frankly we need to be careful trying to shape our message to much around "who might hear" if we are preaching the truth, God will take care of the rest. I have seem more "faithful members" turned off by preaching tithing because they are not faithful in this matter than I ever have the lost. At the same time to avoid preaching and teaching on matters that are our responsibilities as Christians (the things we SHOULD do) in order not to offend someone is basically watering down the message, and does not lead to faithfulness in following where God is leading.

Never said that! Re-read what I said. I specifically was commenting on tithing. Preaching against sin and for discipled lives, including faithful stewardship, is of the utmost importance. I have issue with tithing being preached in the ways I have mentioned before. To do so leads opposite of what you state here...

Our message is not and should never be a message of requirements, because the only requirement for salvation is accepting what Christ has done for you freely.

Peace brother!
Agreeing to disagree!
Lance

And here is where you contradict yourself, you have no problem with other biblical truths to be preached and taught (not as requirements for salvation, but as God's plan and will for our lives) yes you balk on this one and say we are pushing legalism.

[dolfan]

Mac, I would only pipe in here to say this.....I fear the Father. I do.

I have fright at the prospects of disobedience. If that's manipulation, blame Him, not me. Well, you don't have to do that, though because the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. While perfect love casts out fear, and because fear is about punishment and not about love, there is a point where fear is a carrier from immaturity to maturity. Fear serves a purpose.

I admit that I am not "perfect" as in 1 John 4:18 "perfect". I want to be. I don't believe I'm one who is consciously guilty of hating my brothers and sisters as John continues in the following verses. I want to carry out His commandments; and, by doing so and by loving God, I know that I love others and do not hate them, and need not stand in "fear" of God for punishment of that particular wrong.

But, as the writer of Ecclesiastes wrote, "Let us hear the conclusion of the matter. Fear God and keep His commandments." There is a right and proper element of fear. I need to remember the awesomeness and perfection of the One whom I serve. That keeps me from being childish and helps me to go on to maturity.

I have used this with my own child. She has an occasional --- not frequent, but it is there and I'm aware of it --- tendency to sass mouth me. She sometimes will adopt a tone that is less than respectful or maybe too casual or presumptuous. In other words, she is not treating me as her father in those occasions. Most times, she will catch herself and apologize without prompting. It is her little personality, and she's developing the means of checking herself. There are times, though, when she will not. And, those times tend to be more consecutive; in other words, she'll do it two or three times over the course of a day or two. I will remind her first gently, then more sternly. I have, sternly, said, "Am I your father?" "Yes." "Do you love me?" "Yes." "Well, I love you. Are you afraid of me?" "No." (See, she forgets to be.) "Well, you need to be just a little. Because right now, you're disrespecting your father with your tone of voice, and you need to remember what it is like when you get punished. Understand?" And, of course, I get the little forlorn look for a moment and I always, always immediately embrace her and remind her that to love me (or her mom when momma gets the sass) means to obey and respect.

She gets it, but she forgets it, too. And, that's to be expected. Fear reminds me. And, maybe I should be more mature than I am. But, I suppose I'm just not. Fear helps me to love Him more maturely. One day, I trust that I will not need to fear Him to love Him as I should. Until then, though, I'm thankful for God-given fear of Him.

[lance82]

so we should never preach or teach on what a person SHOULD do? that doesn't make sense. No one is teaching this as a requirement for salvation, no one I've heard, and even those that are really pushing it don't go that far. You are reading way more into it than you should. Frankly we need to be careful trying to shape our message to much around "who might hear" if we are preaching the truth, God will take care of the rest. I have seem more "faithful members" turned off by preaching tithing because they are not faithful in this matter than I ever have the lost. At the same time to avoid preaching and teaching on matters that are our responsibilities as Christians (the things we SHOULD do) in order not to offend someone is basically watering down the message, and does not lead to faithfulness in following where God is leading.

Never said that! Re-read what I said. I specifically was commenting on tithing. Preaching against sin and for discipled lives, including faithful stewardship, is of the utmost importance. I have issue with tithing being preached in the ways I have mentioned before. To do so leads opposite of what you state here...

Our message is not and should never be a message of requirements, because the only requirement for salvation is accepting what Christ has done for you freely.

Peace brother!
Agreeing to disagree!
Lance

And here is where you contradict yourself, you have no problem with other biblical truths to be preached and taught (not as requirements for salvation, but as God's plan and will for our lives) yes you balk on this one and say we are pushing legalism.

Brother,
No contradiction at all. Preach what the Apostles taught. Preach what Christ taught. We don't need to be telling people what amount constitutes "Spirit led, sacrifical, or cheerful giving"; no more than we need to be telling them how many chapters a day to read, how many to witness to daily, how long to pray before starting the day, etc...
We do need to be warning against things that will destroy... lust, greed, anger, murder, fornication, envy, jealousy, gossip, false witness, addictions, worshiping anything but God, etc.
You continue to think I will accept that tithing is a "Biblical truth" for NT believers. Sorry, I just don't see it.
I feel like the evangelist who keeps promising to be done.
You will see no more posts from me on this thread!
Now I gotta be done.

Peace!

[scooter]

Brother,
No contradiction at all. Preach what the Apostles taught. Preach what Christ taught. We don't need to be telling people what amount constitutes "Spirit led, sacrifical, or cheerful giving"; no more than we need to be telling them how many chapters a day to read, how many to witness to daily, how long to pray before starting the day, etc...
We do need to be warning against things that will destroy... lust, greed, anger, murder, fornication, envy, jealousy, gossip, false witness, addictions, worshiping anything but God, etc.
You continue to think I will accept that tithing is a "Biblical truth" for NT believers. Sorry, I just don't see it.
I feel like the evangelist who keeps promising to be done.
You will see no more posts from me on this thread!
Now I gotta be done.

Peace!

Response: lol not to be picky but to every "warning" there is a positive behavior which in turn could be highlighted.

Warning against poor stewardship by teaching good stewardship seems to compute.

[Full Quiver]

Most would say the woman that gave all she had was certainly not a good steward.

[RamboPreacher]

This weekend our church had a huge event. Friday was Fall Fest with 15,000 in attendance. Inflatable jumpers, games, candy, laser lights, hotdogs, etc. all for the kids of the church & community.

Saturday and Sunday 3 services were held where the pastor presented an illustrated sermon titles the wife of Frankenstein. The sermon was targeting man's creation, what happens when man plays God especially in the sense of playing church. It was a great message that all Christians should hear in my opinion. It denounced religion and pointed towards Christ doing the work individually in the hearts of men, women, & children.

Before the sermon when normally the offering is received the pastor said, as the ushers were getting together to take up the offering, that he felt lead of the Lord to do something different. He said I don't want anyone to put any money in the buckets. I want the buckets passed in order to receive the visitors cards but no money.

Take this week's tithe & offering and go and do something good for someone with it. If your check is already made out to the church then rewrite it, rip it up, but don't give it to the church. Go out and make an impact in someone's life with that.

He said now the board is probably cringing because normally on a Saturday we receive $50-55,000 in tithes & offerings. He said I know we just fired up a satellite campus in Bowling Green where we spent thousands of $$$ in construction and promotion (with 300-500 in attendance already in 4 weeks) and we spent all this $$$ on the set and promotion for this weekends illustrated sermon (really nice set, costumes, etc.) as well as the fall fest. There were at least 50 inflatables there, at least.

That was a bold move to which I applaud Pastor Davis for. I've not met a pastor that would do such.

I have done that. but you haven't met me either, so...

[Full Quiver]

Cool Rambo, so please tell us how that God would lead you to do such a thing when the Scripture declares, according to some here, that would be robbing God. This should add to the discussion for sure.

[scooter]

Cool Rambo, so please tell us how that God would lead you to do such a thing when the Scripture declares, according to some here, that would be robbing God. This should add to the discussion for sure.

Response: I think that you shared a beautiful story. I can see why that viewing tithes as a "law" you would say such a thing. However I see the beauty of what this pastor did in that he didn't say don't give but rather do something good with it.

God had a provision for certain circumstances where that if one didn't have a Levite or that the journey was too far that an individual could do whatever they wanted with their tithe and in turn that would bless someone. It wasn't the rule it was an exception.

Just like your pastor said the normal practice will return next week.

I guess a good question would be can one still rob God?

[dawgs10]

so we should never preach or teach on what a person SHOULD do? that doesn't make sense. No one is teaching this as a requirement for salvation, no one I've heard, and even those that are really pushing it don't go that far. You are reading way more into it than you should. Frankly we need to be careful trying to shape our message to much around "who might hear" if we are preaching the truth, God will take care of the rest. I have seem more "faithful members" turned off by preaching tithing because they are not faithful in this matter than I ever have the lost. At the same time to avoid preaching and teaching on matters that are our responsibilities as Christians (the things we SHOULD do) in order not to offend someone is basically watering down the message, and does not lead to faithfulness in following where God is leading.

Never said that! Re-read what I said. I specifically was commenting on tithing. Preaching against sin and for discipled lives, including faithful stewardship, is of the utmost importance. I have issue with tithing being preached in the ways I have mentioned before. To do so leads opposite of what you state here...

Our message is not and should never be a message of requirements, because the only requirement for salvation is accepting what Christ has done for you freely.

Peace brother!
Agreeing to disagree!
Lance

And here is where you contradict yourself, you have no problem with other biblical truths to be preached and taught (not as requirements for salvation, but as God's plan and will for our lives) yes you balk on this one and say we are pushing legalism.

Brother,
No contradiction at all. Preach what the Apostles taught. Preach what Christ taught. We don't need to be telling people what amount constitutes "Spirit led, sacrifical, or cheerful giving"; no more than we need to be telling them how many chapters a day to read, how many to witness to daily, how long to pray before starting the day, etc...
We do need to be warning against things that will destroy... lust, greed, anger, murder, fornication, envy, jealousy, gossip, false witness, addictions, worshiping anything but God, etc.
You continue to think I will accept that tithing is a "Biblical truth" for NT believers. Sorry, I just don't see it.
I feel like the evangelist who keeps promising to be done.
You will see no more posts from me on this thread!
Now I gotta be done.

Peace!

teaching what Jesus taught. ok then. mat. 23:23 NLT How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest part of your income, but you ignore the important things of the law-justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave undone the more important things. What did Jesus say? you should tithe. you should tithe. you should tithe. you should tithe. you should tithe. while observing justice, mercy, and faith!!!!!! what did Jesus say. YOU SHOULD TITHE. YOU SHOULD TITHE. YOU SHOULD TITHE. WHILE OBERVING JUSTICE, MERCY, AND FAITH. WHAT DID HE SAY? YOU SHOULD TITHE. YOU SHOULD TITHE. YOU SHOULD TITHE. while observing justice, mercy, and faith.

[scooter]

teaching what Jesus taught. ok then. mat. 23:23 NLT How terrible it will be for you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest part of your income, but you ignore the important things of the law-justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but you should not leave undone the more important things. What did Jesus say? you should tithe. you should tithe. you should tithe. you should tithe. you should tithe. while observing justice, mercy, and faith!!!!!! what did Jesus say. YOU SHOULD TITHE. YOU SHOULD TITHE. YOU SHOULD TITHE. WHILE OBERVING JUSTICE, MERCY, AND FAITH. WHAT DID HE SAY? YOU SHOULD TITHE. YOU SHOULD TITHE. YOU SHOULD TITHE. while observing justice, mercy, and faith.

Response: The thing is it is too easy to say there are many things that Jesus could have said they "should have been doing" that they no longer do under the new covenant.

They should have been "insert your OT command here".

Under the law there are many things they should have been doing.

Just trying to help.