How much better off since last GA?

[Pastor Bill]

and cogop backed you. hmmm, sounds like maybe its not the same church that paul and ron remember.

talk to others on this board who are in similar situation and the church has not move forward very much. Also what movement has been done is mostly on the local level. Recounting several statements it appears that GH is running fast and furious to try to keep pace with the local church. So yep it does seem like the same-o-same-o

BUT isn't that what you have promoted? Local churches following God, and the organization being more of a resource center working to keep up with the diversity of locally run more independent churches? (I thought this was a good thing?)

Prayerfully without being misunderstood I will comment.

Yes you are right and certinally this is what I believe in strong local churches. My reference is that IMHO it should be the GH that is setting the pace. Personally it appears that the local churches are setting the pace.

Isn't that somewhat contradictory in terms? We don't want everything coming down from GH, we want the freedom to run ahead, but then don't like to find that we are ahead and GH is the one "keeping up"?

[one love]

I dont think Paul and Dr. Ron are adding to the trouble just telling how they feel. Many have went through some really hard times even 29 years ago , my family did but that doesnt make them bad or against COGOP just making a statement about there situations. Thats all.
I will now take my flag and run the isle
Glory

[Pastor Bill]

I dont think Paul and Dr. Ron are adding to the trouble just telling how they feel. Many have went through some really hard times even 29 years ago , my family did but that doesnt make them bad or against COGOP just making a statement about there situations. Thats all.
I will now take my flag and run the isle
Glory

I'm not saying they are adding trouble, and I hope my post didn't come across that way, I have alot of respect for these men, Dr. Ron and I spent a little time together at the Jude 2 gatherings at last GA, and I know he's not against us, but it's also important to understand how those of us who are still here feel as well, we are working hard, seeing change, only to hear from those who may not be well informed that nothing has changed, and that's not the CoGoP way. We are making progress, and where we are now, isn't where we were then. To look back to BTI experiences and compare them with right now what we're seeing inside the org, it's very different.

[Paully_44]

I like what Dr Ron and Paul are doing and posting here. I think it is great that they can share their perspective and experiences past and present. A good way to balance learning... at least for me.

[Dr. Ron]

Thank You Paully..........you get lunch when you get here for the GA or IA or CSI or whatever it is now.

Some of you think that because we left the church that we are disconnected from it all. I assure you that I likely know about as much about your work as some of you who pastor here.

I really do want you to progress. I thank God for all the local church progress. If you remember Paul and I both have encouraged all of you to become more locally minded. That is where the rubber meets the road. GHQ will always survive.....remember they OWN all the property. They can sell it and survive. And don't think for one minute they can't....I refer to Pastor Gary's post.

Pastor Gary, btw, has the right hook on it all......he needs to be the GO!!!!

[paul]

and cogop backed you. hmmm, sounds like maybe its not the same church that paul and ron remember.

talk to others on this board who are in similar situation and the church has not move forward very much. Also what movement has been done is mostly on the local level. Recounting several statements it appears that GH is running fast and furious to try to keep pace with the local church. So yep it does seem like the same-o-same-o

BUT isn't that what you have promoted? Local churches following God, and the organization being more of a resource center working to keep up with the diversity of locally run more independent churches? (I thought this was a good thing?)

Prayerfully without being misunderstood I will comment.

Yes you are right and certinally this is what I believe in strong local churches. My reference is that IMHO it should be the GH that is setting the pace. Personally it appears that the local churches are setting the pace.

Isn't that somewhat contradictory in terms? We don't want everything coming down from GH, we want the freedom to run ahead, but then don't like to find that we are ahead and GH is the one "keeping up"?

Bill, I will respond but let me prefece it first. What I am sharing is not about cogop, IQ, nor my organization. It is simple facts that are key in organizational leadership.

Whenever you are a part of an organization it is for a reason. You expect something from them and they in turn from you. It is a tw way street or their would be no purpose for either party to be joined together.

Generally it is the General Organization that must set the pace for the others to follow.

Let me give you an example: When I left cogop their was a few years between my pastorates. I had to find a job, provide for my family. I took a job at a factory in Dallas. This particular factory was one of 90 plants in the corporation. This particular plant had not turned a profit in 20 years, and mostly was kept open as a tax write off.

The corporate office made a desision to change that, gave the local plant flexability to make changes. They hire myself, as plant superintendant, a new general manage, and a new plant manager. Together as the General leaders of this plant we had to set the pace and direction that we were going in. We were demanding certain things form our workers, and in order to get that we had to make sure they had the resources to do what we were expecting from them. the details are long, we had opsition in cross training from unions... but in the long run the results were first year we broke even, no loss...second year profit small, third year $250,000 profit and the fourth year close to $1,000,000 profit for the company.

We had to set the pace ( GH ) but could not do it without strong departments within the plant ( local churches ) As the leaders we could not lag behind what the departments were ignited to do, nor could we as leaders set our pace and leave the departments behind. the departments could not just do their thing apart from the whole.

The end result. Stong leadership from the top, direction, resources, strong departments, stong organization and profits.

This is my form of leadership that I practice. again this is just a micro cosom. It would take to much space to give all the details.

[Dr. Ron]

Paul ....very well said...

Bill, as I recall, the first 100 days of Bishop Howard's tenure was to pray and seek God for "direction" for the entire church. Correct me here if I am wrong.

It sounds as though GHQ is thinking that they are the ones who provide direction and leadership.

Btw, how did that work for ya?

[DaJudge]

As for leaving during the hard times....you certainly can't be talking about me. I stayed through everything except the changing of the D"&R issue. I was there in the fray for the MAT replacement. the ring issue, the Concerned Issue. and many more,.

I actually wasn't referring to you, Dr. Ron. You have definitely earned the right to say whatever you want about COGOP. However, don't get put out when some of us get sick of the constant ya-yaing about how far you independents have progressed since you left behind us stodgy old COGOP'ers. In saying this I want you to know that I really do respect you Dr. Ron.

[Full Quiver]

Funny thing is that there may be more CoGoPers or exCoGoPers at Cedar Ridge, Dr. Ron's church, then at most of you guys' churches.

He is well informed and knows where the bodies are buried.

[Pastor Gary]

He is well informed and knows where the bodies are buried.

Yes, he does, but "love covers over a multitude of sins."

[Dr. Ron]

Yes Pastor Gary...."love really does cover a multitude of sins"....yours included.

[scooter]

One problem with leaving is that when one comes back or offers outside opinions they have the cultured view of the timeframe in which they left and their generation.

When I came back to the Lord and the church after having been gone for many years I brought the 1970's to a 1990's table. To my surprise the "I am the Lord God I change not" church had changed and that without me. I am thankful for those who brought with the LOrds help the organization through such change. However change is not by any means over. It is constant, with or without us.

When I hear outside opinions, even with valid reasoning from their perspectives, there is just a hint of being out of touch.

I know that many of you have great experience with church politics. Having said that in the last 15 years the church has continue to mature without whoever may of left. I know you still have "contacts" who share many of the same old political leanings. I think they jade a proper perspective.

I have been impacted in no way shape or form by destructive politics here on the local level. That jades my opinion. I am busy working for the Lord, the church is a by product, a tool, an outlet. The last decade has been great for the church IMO. I do understand they they exist, but go over and read about the CoG nad the run down childrens home. No organization is perfect, yet.

When I hear the tinged agnst of yesteryear I just thank God it is mostly past and it makes me happy about today. I'm even further encouraged that the Lord has birthed in those that have left such prosperous ministries.

We recently had a son of a the CoGop who left and found success come to speak at one of our ministers conferences. He was focused on the future and thankful for the past.

[Pastor Gary]

Yes Pastor Gary...."love really does cover a multitude of sins"....yours included.

Good thing, ain't it? Mine are many and ugly. The Apostle Paul and I are in the run off for "Chief Sinner" and happy as can be that love and the Blood covers all that.

[Dr. Ron]

I hope that I can continue to offer "outside" perspective...and know that it is not "jaded" nor bound by a decade mentality.

Most of what is now happening in COGOP is not a new concept. Many of us were working and discussing the very issues you are only now dealing with....D&R, Polity, Plurality of Leadership, Financial issues, Evaluation Processes, Ordination and Licensing policies, ......and the list goes on.

For many of us, it is a feeling of " good, they finally got around to it".

It is different for one who was "away from the Lord " and then returns. It is not the same at all. We who have left did not forget all the things we were involved in....and walked through. We had a continum that continues to this day. Interestingly enough, it is a law of physics that one can see the whole picture when not standing in the middle of the subject.

We have been in a conference for the past two days about "understanding the times" We had Dr. Brian Vandeventer..a missionary to the middle east. His presentation sounded like a D.H. Queener message ....with updates based on current events. I made that exact statement. I would never imply that the COGOP was wrong on everything.....but I can see the picture from a different vantage point.....My only hope is that no one hides their heads in the sand in the spirit of "consistancy".

And Pastor Gary....you have to get in line for that "chief sinner" thing. I passed you long ago.......

[Pastor Bill]

Paul, I understand that, but at the same time, the parent company that first brought you in would be more akin to the IO, with you and the other leaders you mentioned more in pastoral leadership roles.

Having the independence to move ahead you became more than a tax write-off for the company, but that wasn't the company setting that pace, it was you.

I think the view that all direction must come from the IO really cuts down on what the local ministry can do. As you pointed out, you have to have strong leaders down in the departments, down doing the work, and that requires adjusting to local customs, personalities, needs, that the IO are not even aware of.