Failed Abortion

[Mike Vande]

I see a baby that the doctors tried to kill with the mother's consent.

Yeah, in order to save one of them instead of letting them both die, which was what the doctors told her would happen if they didn't. Tell the whole story, not just the part that justifies your point.

Murder is murder, no matter how you look at it.

Is terminating the life of an unborn child in an ectopic pregnancy in order oto save the mother's life is murder?

never said it was easy or simple.

You didn't have to. You eliminated every choice except the one that supports your view. That is simplifying the situation. And, you seem to have decided she wasn't a Christian. Why was that?

...I would have to do all I could do to help BOTH babies, and leave the rest in God's hands.

That wasn't the choice the lady was given. She was told by her doctor (and a few others apparently), her choice was lose one or lose both. If it had turned out that way and she had to tell her son about it, I hope she would have been able to tell him in a way that didn't make him feel guilty for living when his twin didn't. But mostly, I hope she doesn't warp her heart with condemnation and louse up the lives of the twins she bore.

[A2JGirl]

Is terminating the life of an unborn child in an ectopic pregnancy in order to save the mother's life is murder?

Yes.

You didn't have to. You eliminated every choice except the one that supports your view.

I eliminated every choice but the one that God would support.

And, you seem to have decided she wasn't a Christian. Why was that?

Christians don't murder their babies.

That wasn't the choice the lady was given. She was told by her doctor (and a few others apparently), her choice was lose one or lose both.

The only choice we have as Christians is to follow His commands.

But mostly, I hope she doesn't warp her heart with condemnation and louse up the lives of the twins she bore.

Me too. Jesus doesn't condemn, He offers salvation.

But the truth is still the truth.

I don't know what else I can say in defense of all of those babies with no voice of their own. I want to edify with my conversation, and not just argue for the sake of arguing.

[Shellie]

Sorry Mike, I've carried four children and almost lost one. I stand where I stand on this one.

True...I've never faced this type of decision and I hope to God I never do. I would only hope that my faith would be strong enough should it ever happen. I would also hope that I would have friends whose faith would be strong enough to hold me up should mine falter.

[Shellie]

Just an observation. Outside of Full Quiver, the sides seem to be split males against females.

The woman that have participated stand by "no way, no how". The men, again outside of FQ, have stood by "maybe depending on the circumstances".

I wonder why this is. Could it be woman have actually carried and given birth? I don't know...like I said, just an observation that caught my attention.

[A2JGirl]

Good observation, Shellie. Though I would have said the same long before I had my daughter, and my husband would say the same things I have said.

[pastorables]

Ecclesiastes 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

Ecclesiastes 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate;

I have come to understand that we just can't paint with a broad stroke as if we understand all of life's mysteries. I don't understand what the Bible means when it says there is a time to kill or when it states there is a time to hate.

My post in this thread was not to seem that I support abortion which most definitely is murder. My intention was to show that we can't always paint with a broad stroke, since we don't know the mind of God. Even God's word states there is a time to kill. Can any of us truly pretend to understand what this means?

It seems that some have chosen to judge this mother's salvation and relationship with God based upon her initial decision to comply with the medical advice given at the time. That is what I take issue with, the judgement of a person's heart which the Bible clearly instructs us against. It seems that God chose not to judge her harshly. He didn't allow the baby to die. With David's sin in the bible, God allowed the baby to die. In this case he actually blessed the mother and allowed the baby to live. Could it be that he saw the intentions of her heart in this decision were pure?

God bless,
pa

P.S. - I realize that there are issues that are more sensitive than others, i.e., abortion, capital punishment, etc, but these are the issues that must be left to God's sovereign judgement.

[Shellie]

It seems that some have chosen to judge this mother's salvation and relationship with God based upon her initial decision to comply with the medical advice given at the time.

If I gave you that impression, I apologize. My argument has soley been that abortion is abortion.

[A2JGirl]

I agree that there are things we don't understand about the mind of God. But I can look in His Word and see, like sweetpea said, that God hates the shedding of innocent blood. I cannot justify sin and murder for any reason. It is this woman's actions that I judge. God said to judge righteous judgement, and that I would be judged the same as I have judged. I'd better not make a judgement and then not hold myself to the same standard (that includes murder with my tongue).

I just hope that this woman realizes the mistake that she made in attempting murder, and choosing to sacrifice one baby for another. Doctors are not the source of all wisdom, and have been known to be wrong anyway. I have to answer to God for my actions, not my "good intentions". God is good and I am thankful that He used this to bring Glory to Himself and prove His sovereignty, to this mother and all who hear about it. I pray it brings about great faith in Jesus!

I wonder if we were talking about a similar situation dealing with toddlers, if this thread would have gone the same way.

[pastorables]

I wonder if we were talking about a similar situation dealing with toddlers, if this thread would have gone the same way.

Okay. Let's do it.

http://edition.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europ ... index.html

The example of conjoined twins will do just fine. Many surgeries have been performed to separate such birth malformations with some being successful and others occurring in death. In some of these situations, babies shared brains, hearts, and other odd deformities.

What about when a deformed baby has to be separated from the life supply of the other twins heart, brain, etc...? Is it murder to perform such a corrective surgery, knowing that one or both could die?

I'm not trying to trick you. I am only trying to expand your thought process concerning life. It would seem that death to save life falls into a unique category. To be honest, I can't begin to pretend to know God's mind on these things. We just don't have a complete understanding of every situation for all time.

Blessings,
pa

[Mike Vande]

Is terminating the life of an unborn child in an ectopic pregnancy in order to save the mother's life is murder?

Yes.

Wow. You'd really let both mother and child die instead of saving the live of the mother by terminating a pregnancy that could never come to term anyway? Do you know what an ectopic pregnancy is? Thank God the lives of women in those situations are not in your hands. If you really mean that, you'd kill them all.

I eliminated every choice but the one that God would support.

No no no, you don't get away with that. You only allowed the situation you wanted so you could make the choice that you wanted to. The lady in question didn't have that luxury, and you still haven't faced her choice, kill one, or kill both because you did nothing. There is only one choice a Christian could make, and that is save a life if you can.

Christians don't murder their babies.

Well, that would be the only sin Christians have never committed or been forgiven by God for...

The only choice we have as Christians is to follow His commands.

Precisely, and she chose to save one life instead of killing two.

Jesus doesn't condemn, He offers salvation.

All I've seen you do for the lady in question is condemn her. Where is your compassion for her?

the truth is still the truth.

Ah, but there is more than one way to look at the truth, as you have plainly demonstrated. You can look through the eyes of your own judgements, or through the mercy of God, recognizing that there but for the grace of goes you...

I don't know what else I can say in defense of all of those babies with no voice of their own.

No, you don't get away with that either. You are not the lone voice for the unborn on this forum. I pray God you never have to face the decision to have an ectopic pregnancy terminated or die.

I want to edify with my conversation, and not just argue for the sake of arguing.

Well, I want to see the nature and character of God reflected in the conversation of His Children. That's the only reason I spoke up at all. And, I believe I can say that I have acted in a completely Christian manner in my exchanges with you.

[pastorables]

And, I believe I can say that I have acted in a completely Christian manner in my exchanges with you.

Amen to that.

Trust me, when I was just a young whippersnapper on Jude 2 and that previous board to be left unnamed, Vande clipped my wings of biblical arrogance more than once (Mike, why couldn't you have been the mild version with me back then?)

pa

[Mike Vande]

Amen to that.

Thank you.

me, when I was just a young whippersnapper on Jude 2 and that previous board to be left unnamed, Vande clipped my wings of biblical arrogance more than once (Mike, why couldn't you have been the mild version with me back then?)

pa

(sigh) Please forgive me for my own arrogance and refusal to treat you as Jesus would have. I guess I'm gonna have to say that a lot for a while...

[pastorables]

(sigh) Please forgive me for my own arrogance and refusal to treat you as Jesus would have. I guess I'm gonna have to say that a lot for a while...

Don't be so hard on yourself. I was just poking fun at you. Your hardline approach probably help me to mature in a lot of ways. That's a good thing.

Blessings,
Abe (just for you Mike)

[A2JGirl]

You'd really let both mother and child die instead of saving the live of the mother by terminating a pregnancy that could never come to term anyway?

I may be in the minority on this, but I would rather die than to know that I had taken the life of my baby before God did.

You only allowed the situation you wanted so you could make the choice that you wanted to. The lady in question didn't have that luxury.

Did I say that I would WANT that situation? Again, I say, if it were me, I would be bawling my eyes out. But I would rather leave it in God's hands (He did pretty good on the outcome of this one, didn't He?) than to know that I had taken a life, again, before God did.

Well, that would be the only sin Christians have never committed or been forgiven by God for...

I said Christians don't murder their babies. I didn't say they couldn't be forgiven for it.

she chose to save one life instead of killing two

There is a big difference between intent to kill and allowing to die.

All I've seen you do for the lady in question is condemn her. Where is your compassion for her?

I apologize for seeming to be without compassion for the mother. That is FAR from the truth, but it the life of unborn children that has captured my attention in this thread. I have never said that it wouldn't be a hard choice to make. I have never said that this mother's heart must not have been breaking or that she was a cold-hearted monster. I don't judge her emotions or her ability as a mother or her love for children. I'm looking at her actions. I do believe that she believed the lie that it was "kinder" to kill her baby.

I have never denied the mercy of God either. I have said that I hope this miracle works faith in the heart of the mother. But I stand by the things I have said. Would you read the Ten Commandments and say, but where is the mercy? In that context, the Bible is just talking about thou shalt and thou shalt not. And that is precisely the track I have taken. Because of that it's made it seem to you that I have no compassion or care nothing for the mercy of God, and that is not the truth. I have just been on one track with this thread.

I would love to be able to sit down with this mother and give her a big hug! God has been soooooooo good and merciful to her. Would I sit down and say to her the things I've said here, exactly as I have said them? NO. There is a difference between discussing an issue in a forum and expressing your heart to someone involved personally. When Jesus came face to face with the woman caught in adultery, he didn't deny that what she did was wrong. But he looked at her with compassion and said, "Go and sin no more."

If y'all really knew me, you would know that I am far from uncompassionate.

I do hope that I am never placed in a situation like this woman was in. I hope I never have to face an ectopic pregnancy. But as Martin Luther said, here I stand, I can do no other.

If I'm ever placed in such a situation, I hope that you all can see that I mean what I say.

Oh, and pastorables, you mentioned the example of conjoined twins. Another choice I hope I never have to make! But there is a difference between doing GOOD with the risk and possibility of death, and outright killing.

That's where I stand. I have enjoyed discussing this with you and I thank you Mike and pastorables for making me stretch my mind and heart to help me concrete what I believe. I look forward to discussing other topics with you all in the future.

Thanks for treating me as if I've been here forever and not a newbie.

[Mike Vande]

I may be in the minority on this, but I would rather die than to know that I had taken the life of my baby before God did.

I know of leaders in the prolife movement who would not only disagree with you on it, they have had ectopic pregnancies terminated themselves. Yes, I'd say you are very much in the minority on it. Shellie, do you agree with this?

Did I say that I would WANT that situation? Again, I say, if it were me, I would be bawling my eyes out. But I would rather leave it in God's hands (He did pretty good on the outcome of this one, didn't He?) than to know that I had taken a life, again, before God did.

What difference does bawling your eyes out make if a child dies that you could have saved? You have the luxury of knowing the outcome, the mother in question didn't. She made the best decision she could have under the circumstances with the knowledge she had at the time.

I said Christians don't murder their babies. I didn't say they couldn't be forgiven for it.

Then she might be a Christian who could be forgiven for her sin?

There is a big difference between intent to kill and allowing to die.

A newborn baby cannot feed itself. If you don't feed it, you are allowing it to die. That isn't murder?

I apologize for seeming to be without compassion for the mother. That is FAR from the truth, but it the life of unborn children that has captured my attention in this thread. I have never said that it wouldn't be a hard choice to make. I have never said that this mother's heart must not have been breaking or that she was a cold-hearted monster. I don't judge her emotions or her ability as a mother or her love for children. I'm looking at her actions. I do believe that she believed the lie that it was "kinder" to kill her baby.

Once again you have the luxury of knowledge she didn't have when she was forced to make the decision. And let's not forget, these days it's possible that a doctor or social worker could get a judge to take custody of the children away from her while still in the womb , and forced the decision upon her. You insist on making the situation more simple than it is, and nothing could be less compassionate.

I have never denied the mercy of God either. I have said that I hope this miracle works faith in the heart of the mother.

And if she were a Christian, you'd be guilty of judging her salvation.

But I stand by the things I have said. Would you read the Ten Commandments and say, but where is the mercy? In that context, the Bible is just talking about thou shalt and thou shalt not. And that is precisely the track I have taken. Because of that it's made it seem to you that I have no compassion or care nothing for the mercy of God, and that is not the truth. I have just been on one track with this thread.

The Bible doesn't say "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not smoke" cigarettes, marijuana, or meth, but most Christian folk seem to think it's not really God's Will to. The Bible does say that if your children backtalk you, they are to be taken out to the edge of town and stoned to death. Now if we remember that to fail to observe any part of the law of the Old Testament (of which the Ten Commandments were merely a part) is to fail in observing all of it, how many parents do think should line up with that law instead of asking "Where's mercy?"

I would love to be able to sit down with this mother and give her a big hug! God has been soooooooo good and merciful to her. Would I sit down and say to her the things I've said here, exactly as I have said them? NO. There is a difference between discussing an issue in a forum and expressing your heart to someone involved personally.

You would be two-faced with this woman if you condemned her when she can't hear you and hugged her when she can. That is commonly defined as hypocracy. And Jesus said to sin in your heart is to sin in actuality...

When Jesus came face to face with the woman caught in adultery, he didn't deny that what she did was wrong. But he looked at her with compassion and said, "Go and sin no more."

Yes, Jesus has that option, being God and knowing her heart. People, on the other hand, do not have the option because they can't even know their own hearts.

If y'all really knew me, you would know that I am far from uncompassionate.

Aw sis, I don't think you are uncompassionate, I just think you haven't thought this out completely.

do hope that I am never placed in a situation like this woman was in. I hope I never have to face an ectopic pregnancy.

Me too, because you might unnecessarily kill two children in one situation and yourself in the other.

as Martin Luther said, here I stand, I can do no other. If I'm ever placed in such a situation, I hope that you all can see that I mean what I say.

Again, I join you in praying that you never face either situation.

That's where I stand. I have enjoyed discussing this with you and I thank you Mike and pastorables for making me stretch my mind and heart to help me concrete what I believe. I look forward to discussing other topics with you all in the future. Thanks for treating me as if I've been here forever and not a newbie.

You are welcome. Thanks for participating.