Mark Driscoll

[MrDanger]

Im sorry I feel that when many say they cant stand the religous "norm" they are often speaking of discipline.

So what part are you against? The moderation of alcohol, the great sex within the confines of marriage or tatoo part?

[one love]

Im sorry I feel that when many say they cant stand the religous "norm" they are often speaking of discipline.

So what part are you against? The moderation of alcohol, the great sex within the confines of marriage or tatoo part?

The entire qoute and the presentation of it. What it implies and the manner in which it is written. I dont mean that offensive but I feel it is just another "we dont like church, so here anything goes, no condemnation" This thinking is not of God and is against all that the word of God stands for. There is one here locally that runs on a platform that church is boring so they have service in a bar while some are drinking, during the process.
We can not "in the name of saving the youth" let down the standard of God and his word so much that there is no difference between being in church and being a lost soul. Again this is not all but I am disturbed by many of the new way of thinking churches. I visited one large one here with my sister. It had it all. Strobe lights, smoke, mosh pits yet it was lacking the spirit of God. Instead of Holy ghost services they seemed to replace that with concerts.

Yes his statements bother me, as a preacher we should be able to promote a life of change and a standard of biblical holiness. I also disagree with the thought about the holy ghost. Please understand if we think we are going to save the lost by acting like the lost, well we may end up just joining the lost. I may not get many to agree here but I feel drinking alcohol is a sin. Thank God he delivered me from it.
I ask does any of these statements bother you or do you agree with them. I am just curious, I am not saying he is not saved and not slamming the intentions of many of these people. Yet I disagree with them and there approach. The only thing I felt in the service I went to (which is a large church here) was I remember saying to my wife the only thing I am not seeing is a bar. It was a club environment and I heard the word Jesus here and there.
May God bless

[MrDanger]

It was a joke.

[TW]

To many church must be the way it has been for hundreds of years. They think that you are not "Holy and Righteous" if you are not sitting in the AMEN corner. To them I say, YES, Jesus preached in the synagogues. He also preached from the mountain side, but most of his ministry was "in the streets." He went among the common Jews, he met them on their turf, he related to them in their terms. He went out to the sinners, he did not wait for them to come into the synagogue. Can we as His followers do less? That seems to be the attitude of many "Christians." Jesus real ministry was that God was not some unapproachable being that you needed a religious institutions to intercede in your behalf. He showed us that the Kingdom was at hand, and those of us that accepted the gift would walk by the side of God. If we stumbled, He would pick us up, if we faltered, He would give us strength. He showed that God was not only approachable, but the He wanted his children to walk with Him. If you do less then you have truly missed the mark.

To preach that drink is a sin, that sex is a sin, that having a tatoo is a sin, that secular music is a sin, is to preach a lie. When you start condemning churches for being different than what you accept, remember that 400 years ago most Christians would have considered you to be filled with the devil and had you burned at the stake. So the next time you are in P&W and you raise "Holy Hands," remember that it was not always the "norm."


TW

[Full Quiver]

Currently I am taking Creation therapy classes, Christian psychology. We are studying human temperament and how that it is the Lord who gives us our temperament when we are in our mother's womb. Secular psychologists teach contrary to this and say that your environment alone determines your temperament. I bring this up because you respond to people and situations based on your temperament. For instance some people are social and some aren't. some seem to be antisocial but really they would love to be included in the conversation but are just waiting to be invited in. Some just don't have the energy to be social. Anyhow if we express ourselves in certain ways and areas of our life based on our God given temperament and we respond also to people and situations based on our God given temperament then it is obvious that we will express ourselves to God and will respond to Him in the same manner.
For example: Many song leaders, P&W directors, preachers, etc. will tell the 's hand, congregation to do this or that, raise your hands, shake someone, say praise the Lord, etc. Personally I dislike these tactics and now I know the psychology behind my dislike. Some people just aren't going to respond to such, some will, and some will but not so willingly. Usually the preacher or song leader just gets frustrated because not everyone responds to their requests. Each congregation is different as each congregation is made up of many different temperaments. My point is that when the Spirit of God moves throughout a congregation we should not worry whether Sis. so and so or brother you know who responds as we do or not. It doesn't mean a thing if they do or don't. Some people weep, some bow their heads in silence, some pray aloud, some shout, some run the aisles, some go to their needs, some sit in silence, etc. Since God gave us our temperament then he most certainly knows best how to interact with us. He expresses Himself to us as He chooses and we are free to respond to Him as we choose. His expression of love to me may generate a shout but that same expression of love to you may cause you to weep and another to laugh. God knows what it takes to get our attention and how to socialize with us as well as show affection to us.
Some folks love affection and need it all the time ie. Dr. Ron. Other people can all but do without it. some need to be touched and others don't want to be touched but do need some spoken affection or just a sign of love towards them. God knows these things about every single person. He is the ultimate gentleman and will give us the affection we need in just the manner we can receive it. Some testify that they felt the Lord wrap His arms around them and others are probably listening and thinking please Lord never do that to me. That may sound odd or even funny but it is true. I can get rather animated when the Lord's Spirit moves on me but my wife usually doesn't. Does this mean she is not saved or even Spirit filled? NOT AT ALL!
Temperament is so important, in my opinion, and to think that everyone must meet God on our terms in the same way we did is absurd, in my opinion. For years I felt this way but I have learned so much in the past year or so and especially since I have started taking this course. The class has given me the science behind what I have been experiencing in the Christian world as of late. We can't put God in a box and neither should we put His creation in a box. For a minister to expect someone to accept the Lord in a specific manner is going to lead that minister to be judgmental towards that individual or frustrated that no one is getting "saved" by their ministry. Ministers need to preach and teach the truth and allow God to interact with his creation whatever way He sees fit. Ministers need to be consistent and convinced as well as separate but all the while realizing that it is the Lord that does the saving. Some folks need to be reached by the Gospel at an early age or they may not ever respond to the Lord based on their temperament.
I am really enjoying my classes and have found this course to be so helpful in my personal life as well as the ministry. God is good!

[Pastor Gary]

Currently I am taking Creation therapy classes, Christian psychology. We are studying human temperament and how that it is the Lord who gives us our temperament when we are in our mother's womb. Secular psychologists teach contrary to this and say that your environment alone determines your temperament.

I agree with almost everything in the remainder of your post, but must point out that your assertion that "Secular psychologists teach contrary to this and say that your environment alone determines your temperament" is simply not true. Maybe in the 1970's or 80's that was the norm, but later research has brought even secular Psychologists around to the view that people are largely hard-wired with personality, temperament and other characteristics from the womb, in much the same way they are born with gender, skin color, hair and eye color.

I just took a course from a well-known, well-published Psychologist who offered the proof of the that.

[Full Quiver]

I may stand corrected but will let Dr. Ron chime in if he likes; I am the student and he is the doctor of course. Typical psychology derives from the teachings of humanist like Freud. Since many of the world's psychologist believe in evolution it is hard to believe that as a community they would teach otherwise. Hair color, eye color, etc. can be derived from DNA which is passed on by the parents to the child but temperament is God's signature on the child and evolutionists and humanists will not say such. They may concede that children are born with temperament but not that God gave it to them. Maybe I should have been more specific in my first post.

[one love]

To many church must be the way it has been for hundreds of years. They think that you are not "Holy and Righteous" if you are not sitting in the AMEN corner. To them I say, YES, Jesus preached in the synagogues.

I agree.

He also preached from the mountain side, but most of his ministry was "in the streets." He went among the common Jews, he met them on their turf, he related to them in their terms. He went out to the sinners, he did not wait for them to come into the synagogue. Can we as His followers do less?

Yes he did. The church's miss this now days. Instead they have confined themselves in there 4 walls. Yet this was not my implication. I assure you that it is one thing to go to the sinners and another to condone there conduct. Jesus talked to the worst of his society but he never said it was ok to do what they did. He changed there lives. He did not look and act like a prostitute to win one, he simply told them the truth of who he was, that experience changed them. Not him. This is my point.

That seems to be the attitude of many "Christians." Jesus real ministry was that God was not some unapproachable being that you needed a religious institutions to intercede in your behalf. He showed us that the Kingdom was at hand, and those of us that accepted the gift would walk by the side of God. If we stumbled, He would pick us up, if we faltered, He would give us strength. He showed that God was not only approachable, but the He wanted his children to walk with Him. If you do less then you have truly missed the mark.

I have not missed the mark I just simply refuse to agree with preaching that justifies sin. You also will not find Jesus do that once, not one time. The word of God promotes a change of life through Jesus Christ.
Next I am used to not being the "norm" I am often called even here:
"legalistic, pharisee,know it all, cult, flag worshiper, etc" Believe me there movement of exceptance of the world is much larger then many penetecostal churches. So I would not say so much they are not the norm, they are becoming the norm. Catholics are the norm but I can not agree with confessing to a priest for my salvation just because it is a different approach. I would not pray to the saints nor put Mary in such a high regard. Calvinist primitive baptist and such groups believe not all can be saved and some were chosen and others were created to go to hell and have no such chance of salvation from birth. I still will not agree with that, not because it is different but because it is not bible. Mormons believe God inherited the right to be God and if we reach a state of Godliness we will one day be Gods of our own planet, again I disgree because it is not bible. I also feel any adding to the bible with another book is wrong. Am I being "holier then though" or raising holy hands while assuming they are wrong? Also am i asking one to recieve christ in a certain manner by believing such? No I am not, I believe in standing for what is right that is all. It is not a question of there salvation it is a question of there preaching and teachings.

To preach that drink is a sin, that sex is a sin, that having a tatoo is a sin, that secular music is a sin, is to preach a lie. When you start condemning churches for being different than what you accept, remember that 400 years ago most Christians would have considered you to be filled with the devil and had you burned at the stake. So the next time you are in P&W and you raise "Holy Hands," remember that it was not always the "norm."

I do believe alcohol is wrong and a sinful practice. I believe having strong drink is a sin. The "sex" comment is rediculous. I just find it crazy on your "church " website you would say such things. Yet I know that is the point to seem as close to not being like the "norm. christians" but more like the average non believer. My "Holy hands" are still not the norm friend. I will contiune to disagree with things that are not BIBLICAL not things that are simply different. That is the difference here. I will not agree that the Holy ghost comes upon repentance. I dont think drinking, prompting that we are all sinners it right. I am not questioning his salvation nor implying that I am more righteous then anyone else. But the truth is the truth. If you feel other wise then start preaching the same way. Im not sure what type of church you go to so I am not meaning to offend just make a point. I will never approach a sinner and act like them while they are in sin to try to win them. When do you change back?
It is interesting that i see some so stern on Bible if it concerns "prophecy" and other items but yet I am against those watering the word down and it is seemed to be absurd. Doctrine consist more then Jesus loves you.

Now on the other hand I do believe in going into prisons, ghettos, the streets and so on. I had a friend that used to hang out front of the bars until they closed and as they walked out he would play christian songs and kindly tell them of christ. I had many friends and many enemies in years past, I do not mean "verbal" enemies either. I love to see them and tell them what Jesus Christ did for me. Yet I will not sit in the room with them while they are drinking and smoking weed and drug deals are going on. So yes go to the sinner but there should be some restraint also.
May God Bless-----By all means show me where we sin everyday and that it is ok. If not then you should not defend those who do so. IMHO

[Gerald Creasy]

I do believe alcohol is wrong and a sinful practice. I believe having strong drink is a sin.

Can you back up that belief with scripture?

(If you want to discuss this issue please respond in the Doctrine section)

[dbserv]

I do believe alcohol is wrong and a sinful practice. I believe having strong drink is a sin.

Can you back up that belief with scripture?

NO!!!

[dolfan]

One love, I respect your views. You're not alone, of course. There's been a lot of harder heads than yours here who, over time and through God's gracious patience gingerly and sometimes not-so-gingerly escorting them through a process of a deeper view of Him and His ability and willingness to connect with people, have and continue to be changed by God, His Word, the Holy Spirit, the person of Jesus and through interaction and fellowship with other believers and followers of Christ. I'm surely on the other side of the spectrum from you, much closer to what you deem un-Christian (and, I know you're not making the accusation that anyone is not Christian, but you are genuinely troubled by a certain worldliness that you detect). So, what I think and say may not mean much to you.

BUT , I love it when guys and ladies with your background, your perspective, show up here and speak up here, and stick around. Now, I'm former COGOP, but not a lifer in it and not raised in it. But, it is what I consider my spiritual birthplace, and I'll always consider it home. I don't trash your house, because at one time, it was mine, too, and I still like to think I'm a good neighbor.

I am a lot different from some here on my views, and not .02 worth of difference from most that matter. SO, with all that said, I'd like to really, honestly and as friendly as I can do to another brother and fellow guy say this: The love you have for God and righteousness is PRECISELY the factor that leads people like Mark Driscoll, Rob Bell, Erwin McManus and lots of others to where they are. You have in your little earthen vessel the most havoc-wreaking force on the planet, the power of God. God's power is the power to become (John 1:12), and that means change. The biblical perspective on us is literally, "Change or die". The cultural relevance indictment of us is literally, "Change or die." The undone mission of Christ that is entrusted to us calls us to "change or die".

My hope is that you'll change. Not because you are "wrong", not because I don't like where you are or what you believe, but because what you now hold on to as right belief, as paramount belief, is certainly going to lead you to either change or die. As that happens, you'll learn more about what is important and what isn't. A lot of what these churches you find in error hang their hats on is, in fact, not important. Some of it may be downtright silly, other parts may be far worse than silly. But, you can't avoid the errors by dodging the people making them, or by refusing to acknowledge their impact on the world you live and do God's work in. And, that, in my own opinion, is something that causes local churches with a bit of history behind them to wither on the vine.

The culture you're in must be engaged, and just taking your church with you when you go is not the elbow-rubbing, grubby, gritty and nasty life changing investment of Himself that Jesus engaged in His earthly ministry. There's a lot that culturally relevant Christianity ought not to do and be, and you'll figure that out, but there's no way to do that until you go through the muckety-muck with the people you say you're "reaching". Sorry, that's just how it is.

[Dr. Ron]

I have only read a small amount of this guy. He is of the Rob Bell type and my associate leans a lot in that direction. I am too busy being Purpose Driven and that certainly does not eliminate the Bell/Driscoll methodology, but I don't have a lot of time to research other methods of presentation right now.

As for the post by FQ, he is certainly learning a great deal and I see a tremendous change in him. He is correct that "secuarl psychology" as a whole condemns the study of temperament and calls it "profiling" and dismisses it in the terms of the Christian view of Creationism. While many individual psychologists give it some credibility now, they still do not fall on the side of the "God endowed "temperament. Most ascribe to the "tabula rasa" position.

So , PG is correct in saying that some leading psychologists agree, but the field as a whole does not. All forms of "secular psychology " are based on humanism and evolution. This is a proven fact. Most Christian psychologists have adopted one or more of the "big eight" modalities and added a "scriptural context " to it and adapted it. Not all that bad but still not a pure form of Christian counseling. Most colleges and seminaries teach the Rogerian modality.....client centered therapy.....basically because it does the "least amount of damage".

All of the above information is not my thougts alone but we documented in most texts.

Again, I think that one of my old bible teachers from BTI said it well..."A man who won't change his mind is a fool....A man who won't change his mind when the spirit moves him is a bigger fool...but a man who won't change his mind when impacted by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, is the biggest fool of all" C.T. Davidson.

[Shellie]

FQ wrote:

Currently I am taking Creation therapy classes, Christian psychology.

Take a writing class and I'll read your posts.

Not meaning to bust your chops but when someone doesn't use paragraphs; I simply don't read. It's too tedious to follow all those lines of type.

[Shellie]

Mr. Danger wrote:

The moderation of alcohol, the great sex within the confines of marriage or tatoo part?

It's the sex and tattoos when you've had too much alcohol that gets you into trouble.

[MrDanger]

I was pretty sure that was when sin entered in the picture.