Source on Wine in Bible Times

[Shellie]

Pastor Gary wrote:

tin-foil-hat wearing rubes.

(I mean that as no offense to any individual here or elsewhere.)

I'm glad you didn't mean that. I kinda like my tin foil hat.

[dawgs10]

Just a quick disclaimer...before anyone gets the wrong idea...I'm not pro-alcohol....I'm pro-Bible and walking in the light as I covenanted to do so many years ago.

I'm a truth seeker and I don't want to accept what anyone says unless it is SOLIDLY backed up by the Word...Not Tradition or opinion.

uhh!! put down the bud and sober up, you have to preach sunday!!!

[PastorDaniel]

Just a quick disclaimer...before anyone gets the wrong idea...I'm not pro-alcohol....I'm pro-Bible and walking in the light as I covenanted to do so many years ago.

I'm a truth seeker and I don't want to accept what anyone says unless it is SOLIDLY backed up by the Word...Not Tradition or opinion.

uhh!! put down the bud and sober up, you have to preach sunday!!!

Now.....Dawgs.....how can I sober up if you keep handig me one everytime you get one!

[Pastor Bill]

Do you think that the wine Jesus miracuously produced at the wedding was fermented or unfermented?

Personally, I do not believe Jesus provided a fermented drink. Either it was strictly non fermented or sufficiently diluted so as to be virtually non fermented, or something.

I'm holding off on any further details here, 'cause I wanna reply to dolfan as well.

And why do you hold this position? Comments made at the wedding seem to at least vaguely hint otherwise.

[soulsearcher]

I don't know about you guys, but it's very hard for me to be merry with the watered down unfermented stuff.

[Pastor Bill]

So you are saying that it couldn't have been fermented because if it were, Christ would have been causing them to sin? I think that's a stretch, from the sounds of the story, too little wine had been provided for the gathering, which was why Christ performed the miracle. This doesn't seem to imply overindulgence, and to provide an unfermented wine at the end would have not fit with the comment made about this been the best for last, which implied most give the good wine at first, then wait till people are a little tipsy (showing the first wine was fermented) to bring out the poorer quality. To bring out unfermented wine afterwards would fall into the same thought process, and wouldn't seem to illicit that comment.

[Sherry]

I don't know about you guys, but it's very hard for me to be merry with the watered down unfermented stuff.

[Poimen]

I get ticked off when people say that the Bible teaches NOT to drink.

BUt if there are scriptures that say to get or give "strong drink" (and Poimen "strong drink" can in NO WAY be considered "diluted") YOU CAN NOT say the Bible teaches total abstinence.

It is not an issue of wanting to justify drinking, since I do not drink.

It is an issue of people ignoring their Bible.

Hey Brother,

I didn't start this thread to argue views or convictions concerning alcohol consumption. I just wanted to point out a very thorough researched reference source on wines & preservation in Bible Times.

[one love]

for all the "pro wine" people here do you use real wine during communion or grape juice? If not real wine why do you choose to go against your biblical belief. If Jesus used real (fermented) wine should you not also?

[one love]

Just a quick disclaimer...before anyone gets the wrong idea...I'm not pro-alcohol....I'm pro-Bible and walking in the light as I covenanted to do so many years ago.

I'm a truth seeker and I don't want to accept what anyone says unless it is SOLIDLY backed up by the Word...Not Tradition or opinion.

AMEN! Don't drink, never have, and don't encourage it... HOWEVER: when we feel it so necessary to support our opposition to drinking that we try to explain away history and the whole of scripture by some convoluted attempt to de-ferment Jesus' miracle, we look like a bunch of flat-earth, holocaust-denying, tin-foil-hat wearing rubes.

(I mean that as no offense to any individual here or elsewhere.)

from the article

This practice is confirmed both in rabbinical and Christian literature. For example, the Halakat Gedalat, the earliest compendium of the Talmud, says: "One may press out a cluster of grapes and pronounce the kiddush [blessing pronounced at the consecration of the Sabbath or a festival] over the juice, since the juice of the grape is considered wine in connection with the law of the Nazarite."15

The apocryphal Acts and Martyrdom of Matthew, a document which circulated in the second and third centuries of the Christian era, attests to the use of freshly pressed juice of grapes in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper: "Bring as an offering the holy bread; and, having pressed three clusters from the vine into a cup, communicate with me, as the Lord Jesus showed us how to offer up when he rose from the dead on the third day."16 This is a clear and positive testimony not only of the custom of making grape juice by pressing grapes, but also of using unfermented grape juice in the celebration of the Lord’s Suppe

so you consider this to be impossible? Show me in the bible where it says they used fermented wine. Show me how you can prove the last supper was not squeezed unfermented wine. I will be waiting. Pastor Daniel since you only use scripture please not with such verses

[RamboPreacher]

for all the "pro wine" people here do you use real wine during communion or grape juice? If not real wine why do you choose to go against your biblical belief. If Jesus used real (fermented) wine should you not also?

I think your dichotomy-paradigm is not as black and white as you want to make it out to be.

I am not a pastor, but I wouldn't serve wine, for the simple reason that it would be illegal in this country' we have a lot of children and youth that participate in communion. I hope that using the given logic you propose in that absolute dichotomy, that you do not allow children and yout to participate in the communion tradition/ceremony?

Even if it was not "against the law", and it was perfectly "socially acceptable"; then the wine used would be more "biblical" (as understood/correct, and I agree with Poimen on this particular point) that most "table" wine was watered down.

The next point is not that I am "pro-wine", but rather that I am against a "church doctrine" that teaches that it is "biblical" for complete/absolute abstention. why is it that folks that are doctrinal-abstention-teachers assume that "we" are trying to make excuse to "drink"?

As I alluded, and for me, it is not about allowing or not allowing wine or "strong drink", but rather what "biblical doctrine" is being taught in order to teach, and disciple people to have a closer relationship with their creator, rather than a simple list of rules that can be checked off in order to attain salvation or belong to a particular exclusivistic church.

The parable of the wine skins come to mind - not the physical dimension of fermenting wine breaking the bag (with the older, fermented wine being more tasty):

37 “And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined. 38 “But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. 39 “And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, ‘The old is good enough.’ ” (NASB Lk 5:37-39)

to me - the context is about the old and new covenant - and the direct reference in the last verse, (to me- again) is showing that those in the old covenant (read as those that have and continue to desire to be legalistic and want the "easy" checklist of rules and laws to follow rather than the faith required for a direct relationship with God through the New covenant) believe that it is good enough, or a more direct translation is that it is more tasty (chrestos), with a connotation of being more mild/mellow.

telling me that "they" preferred the Old (legalistic, check-box-style, religion, that requires no personal involvement of relationship), because it is easier to swallow.

just my 2-cents.

[Gerald Creasy]

What I would like to know is:

How did Noah get drunk after the flood if they used unfermented wine?

How did Joseph and his brothers get drunk if they used unfermented wine?

How did Lot get drunk (twice) if they used unfermented wine?

[Pastor Bill]

for all the "pro wine" people here do you use real wine during communion or grape juice? If not real wine why do you choose to go against your biblical belief. If Jesus used real (fermented) wine should you not also?

Wow, was there anyone here that was "pro wine"?

That's just plain wrong, since you can't confidently discuss the truth of the situation, you result to accusations and twisting the words of those you don't agree with. come on now, that's just sad.

[Pastor Bill]

Just a quick disclaimer...before anyone gets the wrong idea...I'm not pro-alcohol....I'm pro-Bible and walking in the light as I covenanted to do so many years ago.

I'm a truth seeker and I don't want to accept what anyone says unless it is SOLIDLY backed up by the Word...Not Tradition or opinion.

AMEN! Don't drink, never have, and don't encourage it... HOWEVER: when we feel it so necessary to support our opposition to drinking that we try to explain away history and the whole of scripture by some convoluted attempt to de-ferment Jesus' miracle, we look like a bunch of flat-earth, holocaust-denying, tin-foil-hat wearing rubes.

(I mean that as no offense to any individual here or elsewhere.)

from the article

This practice is confirmed both in rabbinical and Christian literature. For example, the Halakat Gedalat, the earliest compendium of the Talmud, says: "One may press out a cluster of grapes and pronounce the kiddush [blessing pronounced at the consecration of the Sabbath or a festival] over the juice, since the juice of the grape is considered wine in connection with the law of the Nazarite."15

The apocryphal Acts and Martyrdom of Matthew, a document which circulated in the second and third centuries of the Christian era, attests to the use of freshly pressed juice of grapes in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper: "Bring as an offering the holy bread; and, having pressed three clusters from the vine into a cup, communicate with me, as the Lord Jesus showed us how to offer up when he rose from the dead on the third day."16 This is a clear and positive testimony not only of the custom of making grape juice by pressing grapes, but also of using unfermented grape juice in the celebration of the Lord’s Suppe

so you consider this to be impossible? Show me in the bible where it says they used fermented wine. Show me how you can prove the last supper was not squeezed unfermented wine. I will be waiting. Pastor Daniel since you only use scripture please not with such verses

Again One Love, where did anyone say this was not possible, or was never used. The only thing that was stated was that all wine was NOT unfermented, Christ's miracle of water into wine implies fermented wine, and many other scriptures show wine to be fermented (including some encouraging it's use).

All your post shows is that in the early church there were some that used unfermented juice, and that is fine, most of us still do this today, but that does not mean it is a requirement, nor does it mean that Christ did or did not use it.

[MacUser]

The next point is not that I am "pro-wine", but rather that I am against a "church doctrine" that teaches that it is "biblical" for complete/absolute abstention. why is it that folks that are doctrinal-abstention-teachers assume that "we" are trying to make excuse to "drink"?

As I alluded, and for me, it is not about allowing or not allowing wine or "strong drink", but rather what "biblical doctrine" is being taught in order to teach, and disciple people to have a closer relationship with their creator, rather than a simple list of rules that can be checked off in order to attain salvation or belong to a particular exclusivistic church.

Well said RB. No need to add to this. Ditto.