shout

[RamboPreacher]

Can I ask what you are getting at? Im asking not assuming, do you feel the Holy ghost will not move on people that way and it is flesh?
Im sure you are not but I am trying to understand so help a brotha

I know the Holy Ghost can/will do whatever He chooses. I also believe a LOT of the kind of reactions being mimicked in the clips on YouTube are fleshly, learned behavior. Sorry of that offends anyone.

no offense here, and I agree.

[Pastor Gary]

so do you feel most of those type of actions are flesh?[/quote]

I said "a lot" -- YOU said "most"

...if so what would be real to you as a move of the holy ghost?

Let me ask you... was the PURPOSE for which the Spirit was sent "to move" people physically? That might be one of the side-effects, or bonus, frosting-on-the-cake experiential aspects of the Spirit for those who find it important, but is it the essence of what it means to be "Spirit-filled?"

[one love]

so do you feel most of those type of actions are flesh?

I said "a lot" -- YOU said "most"

...if so what would be real to you as a move of the holy ghost?

Let me ask you... was the PURPOSE for which the Spirit was sent "to move" people physically? That might be one of the side-effects, or bonus, frosting-on-the-cake experiential aspects of the Spirit for those who find it important, but is it the essence of what it means to be "Spirit-filled?"[/quote]

PG surely you do not feel that I dont know the operation of the Holy ghost? Come on Brother ...

[JanB]

"Pastor Gary" or is it mostly observed/learned behavior?

Pretty well describes it for me, most of the time. The Bahama Brass Band barely gets 3 notes out and there will be "shouting" all over the building. I do enjoy that band!

[KBevangelist]

Now that you've brought it up, do you believe that the kind of uncontrolled jerking pentecostals refer to as "shouting" (and why it is called that is another question) is normative behavior? In other words, do you envision the Apostle Paul shouting in that manner, or is it mostly observed/learned behavior?

I was waiting for someone to ask this (was about to start another thread directed in this manner).

I have always asked if Shouting, Screaming or likes was bibical. I am not against shouting, though I am not moved liked that, but I am against screaming.

I think alot of it is learned behavior. I do not doubt that God can move on people like that, but what purpose does it server other than self glorification?

KB

[Pastor Gary]

PG surely you do not feel that I dont know the operation of the Holy ghost? Come on Brother ...

We are engaged in a dialog about the Spirit, and your question suggested that, to you, a "move of the Holy Ghost" centered upon physical manifestations such as "shouting." I do not happen to accept that premise.

A move of the Holy Ghost to me has to do mostly with the expansion of God's kingdom (his rule and reign), pressing back the darkness of sin, evil and injustice, and the empowerment of God's people to have the courage and supernatural enablement to be Jesus with skin on in their world.

Honestly: I couldn't care less about shouting.

[one love]

PG surely you do not feel that I dont know the operation of the Holy ghost? Come on Brother ...

We are engaged in a dialog about the Spirit, and your question suggested that, to you, a "move of the Holy Ghost" centered upon physical manifestations such as "shouting." I do not happen to accept that premise.

A move of the Holy Ghost to me has to do mostly with the expansion of God's kingdom (his rule and reign), pressing back the darkness of sin, evil and injustice, and the empowerment of God's people to have the courage and supernatural enablement to be Jesus with skin on in their world.

Honestly: I couldn't care less about shouting.

A move of the holy ghost can mean many things the holy ghost is our teacher, comforter, power for service among other things as well.
I never said that a move of the spirit was shouting alone but i would not say "i could care less about a shout. I would rather be in a service with good preaching and good worship which allows the Holyghost to move HOWEVER he chooses. It seems again many pentecostals are losing much of there heritage, rather in holiness, teachings or even in the power of the things in pentecost. Many feel speaking in tongues is shouting. I had a friend recently get saved nd recieved the holy ghost but the church she goes to says dont speak in tungues in public for instance church.
Look I still hold to "queench not the spirit" allow him to move.

I feel we have allowed educated discussions take the place of the freedom of the spirit. I know some who rather have no move , no speaking in tongues, just a quite message and service. I want it all , all that God has. I am not ashamed to allow God to move on me and shout, cry , speak in tongues, preach, or just witness. I am Not one who gets up and runs and shouts a lot but when the power hits me i move, this is why i would not say "I could care less about shouting"

I will continually be amazed how the roots are changing more and more, I attended a COG the other week since we had no wed night service, It was good teaching which definetly would be legalistic to many here.
I visited one of the bigger ones here a few years back and they were still shouting, speaking in tongues and having freedom with preaching just as they did when i was a child. I think the cogop is going to have sme major changing to do because it is obvious many of the minsitry and even overseers do not believe even the teachings that are posted on there site, I wonder how far will it go. I mean no disrespect, but i think i am daily being amazed.
Maybe it was the being drunk is not a sin dunno
God Bless

[macgulley]

The video made me a little uncomfortable but not nearly as much as the numerous times I have witnessed this type of "manifestation" when the Holy Spirit residing in me did not agree with what was happening. I think the video shows a lack of respect for the real move of the Spirit, however, it does strike a chord of truth in its depiction of how quickly some people transition from disinterest to rapture on cue.

Having seen movies of people from around the world displaying many of the same distinctive characteristics in their "shouting", I have difficulty believing that it is completely a learned behavior.

So, on the question at hand, mark me unequivocally undecided.

[Kevin]

A move of the holy ghost can mean many things the holy ghost is our teacher, comforter, power for service among other things as well.

I agree with this statement whole-heartedly. I believe (from what little personal experience I have) that the Spirit sometimes tries to teach us humility through a "shout". Some of us have a hard time learning the lesson that the spirit is presenting (and no, that's not a slur against anyone... I'm hard-headed).

I think what Pastor Gary was getting at is that we end up worshipping the experience of the "move" or pointing toward who it happened to instead of thinking about the lesson God is patiently trying to teach us or what can be learned from it to draw us closer to God.

One lady desperately needed comforting when her son died in a car-jacking. The Spirit comforts her openly in front of the church to bring edification to the entire church so that we all know that God is there and cares very much for us. It's a beautiful thing when the Holy Ghost comforts, teaches, etc. and God is remembered and edified.

I think what Pastor Gary is trying to say is that everything that we do should be edifying to Christ. We should always point to Him.

[oletimer]

In other words, do you envision the Apostle Paul shouting in that manner, or is it mostly observed/learned behavior?

Ac 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Ac 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel

I don’t see Paul being any different from Peter and the rest of the disciples.

I know the Holy Ghost can/will do whatever He chooses. I also believe a LOT of the kind of reactions being mimicked in the clips on YouTube are fleshly, learned behavior. Sorry of that offends anyone.

PG, I will have to agree with you on that part. I’m seeing a lot of that kind happens lately. I personally believe more people are learning how to act like they got the Holy Ghost, when they need to get save and seek the Holy Ghost the right way.

Let me ask you... was the PURPOSE for which the Spirit was sent "to move" people physically?

Ac 1:8 But ye shall receive power,
John 16:13 the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: … and he will shew you things to come. John 14:26 …. he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

There is a lot more, but I hope you get the ideal. Again I refer to verse Acts 2:15

I have no problem when it is the real HG that is moving. God knows that most of us could stand to be in some of those services, might bring back old memories.

When they lay hands on them, they fall out, lay there a few minuets, get up and back in line go down again, that is mockery.

I think a lot of it is learned behavior. I do not doubt that God can move on people like that, but what purpose does it server other than self glorification?

This baptism is always accompanied by the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. On the day of day of Pentecost, it was evidence and a witness. When it is the real HG it is still evidence and a witness.

Kevin:
I think what Pastor Gary was getting at is that we end up worshipping the experience of the "move" or pointing toward who it happened to instead of thinking about the lesson God is patiently trying to teach us or what can be learned from it to draw us closer to God.

I wonder if you know just how close you really are.

[Kevin]

I wonder if you know just how close you really are.

Trust me, Sir. If anything I said came out coherent, it was a pleasant mistake.

Suffice it to say that I'm still trying to learn how to learn. It's a good thing God is patient.

[Pastor Gary]

I think what Pastor Gary is trying to say is that everything that we do should be edifying to Christ. We should always point to Him.

Indeed. Kevin knows me well.

Kev has also seen a LARGE woman at our church dealing with the grief after the loss of her husband, moved on by the Holy Spirit, dancing up to the front of the church during P&W like a graceful ballerina, spinning and leaping. And it was in order, and very moving to watch.

Loving ONLY the genuine manifestations of the Spirit is not quenching... it is using the brain and discernment God gave us.

I do not believe what happened on the Day of Pentecost looked anything like what we see in modern pentecostal churches and accept as a move of the Spirit. I realize my view is the minority view, but I have seen so much fleshly excess blamed on the Spirit, and so many people shouting and screaming, but leaving the church with hearts filled with prejudice, resentment, and a total lack of compassion for the hurting and poor, that I am no longer impressed with the shout.

Give me 2 people dipping soup at a homeless shelter over 200 dancing a jig in church any day of the week.

[one love]

I have seen my fair share of flesh as well but as you said about that woman, the real thing is worth it. I still enjoy when entire servies are blessed, not flesh. I do and im able to discern. When I see the flesh i usually leave for a little while.


Oletimer i agree that the benny hinn "pick him up and then they are out again" stuff is sickening, but im talking about good HG services.

[Pastor Gary]

I have seen my fair share of flesh as well but as you said about that woman, the real thing is worth it. I still enjoy when entire servies are blessed, not flesh.... im talking about good HG services.

You are a pentecostal Christian. I am a Christian who is, secondarily, pentecostal. A great service, for me, is one in which people leave changed, walking closer in relationship with Christ, ready to face the week touching the lives of others. It may, or may not, include any kind of physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit; but you'll definitely see his hands at work.

[one love]

I have seen my fair share of flesh as well but as you said about that woman, the real thing is worth it. I still enjoy when entire servies are blessed, not flesh.... im talking about good HG services.

You are a pentecostal Christian. I am a Christian who is, secondarily, pentecostal. A great service, for me, is one in which people leave changed, walking closer in relationship with Christ, ready to face the week touching the lives of others. It may, or may not, include any kind of physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit; but you'll definitely see his hands at work.

Actually im just a "Christian"

well pG i like to see all that done, lives changed, people encouraged by the spirit of God and the word preached. I have seen people who have suffered greatly rejoice in the HG and be strengthened, It is not about a showy shout at all it is about obedience to the Lord and his spirit. He does things decent and in order. I want ot worship and be preached to and feel his presence in that.

I dont consider myself pentecostal in the way you think i do, i never tell someone im pentecostal, yet i do believe the things that persist to the day of penetecost. Pentecostal has always seemed like a lumped denomination but that is niether here nor there.

I have seen many flock to the alter when the HG moves because it is him that does the moving and convicting.