Church s(hopping)

[Paully_44]

Please define exactly what you mean by "a Jezebel spirit?"

What do you mean when you say some of the women "were behaving very conspicuously?"

Welcome from across the pond.

Those were going to be my 2 questions to the original post. Just what is the Jezebel spirit?

[dolfan]

...They have an anointed, talented worship leader...the worship leader concluded praise and worship by having the men come up for prayer. My husband returned to his seat looking stiff and uncomfortable. When I asked what was wrong, he said, "There are bad spirits here." He had discerned a heavy spiritual problem with the pastor and also that many others in the church were being influenced by a Jezebel spirit. It didn't take long to note that several women in the front were behaving very conspicuously, and they weren't the only ones.

A few questions here.

1) If you and your husbands are Christians, and there was clear evidence of demonic possession at the church, why did you not confront the demons in the manner that Jesus and the Apostles did? Why didn't you take control of the situation, and cast out the demons? Or, if you rightly discerned that the worship leader was "annointed" by God, to whom demons are but a triffle, why didn't this annointed man do something?

2) Please define exactly what you mean by "a Jezebel spirit?" Is that something God revealed to you, and if so, how? Or is it just something you heard on TBN or GodTV? Either way, I'd like to know what it is.

3) What do you mean when you say some of the women "were behaving very conspicuously?" Given that the word "conspicuous" means "easily seen or noticed," I fail to see what is alarming about this. Were you concerned because these women were easy to be seen? Should they have hidden themselves from view -- or what? I'm sorry, I don't understand the problem.

Right Rev. Dr. Bishop Wright, would you please use your spell checker for the words "anointed" and "trifle"? Thanks, and congratulations for joining J2. I'm certain we haven't been, um, honored with your presence here already.

[crispfin]

Please define exactly what you mean by "a Jezebel spirit?"

What do you mean when you say some of the women "were behaving very conspicuously?"

Welcome from across the pond.

Those were going to be my 2 questions to the original post. Just what is the Jezebel spirit?

I know I endured about a month or so worth of sermons and Sunday school lessons about a Jezebel spirit early last year. All I really remember is that is was repeatedly insinuated that Hillary Clinton had something to do with it. Don't remember much else.

[N.T. Wright Fan]

Right Rev. Dr. Bishop Wright, would you please use your spell checker for the words "anointed" and "trifle"? Thanks, and congratulations for joining J2. I'm certain we haven't been, um, honored with your presence here already.

Thank you, kind sir, for that gentle and much-needed word of correction. My very capable staff usually catches that sort of thing for me. Unfortunately, I'm on holiday and was in a hurry - the trout are really biting this time of year. I'll try to be more careful.

Hopefully, the force of my inquiry was not too blunted by those embarrassing spelling errors.

God bless you.

[dolfan]

I'm sure they're biting, but at 6:30 GMT? You are an ardent angler, sir.

[MacUser]

Just what is the Jezebel spirit?

Google. Seriously, It's much faster and abundant.

[Pastor Gary]

Right Rev. Dr. Bishop Wright, would you please use your spell checker for the words "anointed" and "trifle"? Thanks, and congratulations for joining J2. I'm certain we haven't been, um, honored with your presence here already.

Thank you, kind sir, for that gentle and much-needed word of correction. My very capable staff usually catches that sort of thing for me. Unfortunately, I'm on holiday and was in a hurry - the trout are really biting this time of year. I'll try to be more careful.

Hopefully, the force of my inquiry was not too blunted by those embarrassing spelling errors.

God bless you.

Ahem... The Administrator gently suggests that on this board, as opposed to others, we prefer our posters (a) have a single, consistent identity, and (b) not impersonate other actual humans.

[Mike Vande]

1) If you and your husbands are Christians, and there was clear evidence of demonic possession at the church, why did you not confront the demons in the manner that Jesus and the Apostles did? Why didn't you take control of the situation, and cast out the demons?

Not to start anything, Brah, but the apostles weren't always succcesful at casting out demons. At least one instance was recorded where they tried repeatedly and didn't get the job done. And when they asked why not, Jesus told them, "this kind comes out only by fasting and prayer."

It's too easy to say "Why didn't you do thus-and-so" when you weren't there. Most people would be ay least somewhat timid about getting up in an unfamiliar church and calling demons out for a fight. I'd be very wary of anybody who wasn't.

And if they hadn't just been transfigured after a period of fasting and prayer (I am assuming that Jennifer and her husband hadn't, but they can correct me if they had), it's wisdom not to just start swinging without a clear instruction to from God. Actually, that's wise in pretty much every case.

Nicky Cruz wrote that he saw a homeless man on a street in New York city, babbling to himself incoherently, acting either crazy or demonized. He said he asked God on the spot what he should do for the man, and God told him very strongly to leave the man alone and get away from him. Plainly, it's not supposed to be an automatic reaction when you see a demonized person, or a person with mental problems for that matter, that you do something with, to, or for them.

The teachers who advise casting out every demon they encounter usually also say you can be healthy, wealthy and happy all the days of your life if you just have enough of faith and know who you are iin Christ. If you don't believe that (you can correct me if you do), you probably don't really think she should have started casting out demons.

Were you trying to bait your sister in Christ, or do you really believe the "Faith" mesage?

[Russell Roberts]

Based on manuscript evidence, the word 'fasting' might be a motivated reading. Here is the translation of the NETBible and their text note.

Mar 9:29 He told them, "This kind can come out only by prayer."38

Mar 9:29

38 tc Most witnesses, even early and excellent ones (Ì45vid א2 A C D L W Θ Ψ Ë1,13 33 Ï lat co), have "and fasting" (καὶ νηστείᾳ, kai nēsteia) after "prayer" here. But this seems to be a motivated reading, due to the early church's emphasis on fasting (TCGNT 85; cf., e.g., 2 Clem. Mar_16:4; Pol. Phil 7:2; Did. Mar_1:3; Mar_7:4). That the most important witnesses (א* B), as well as a few others (0274 2427 k), lack καὶ νηστείᾳ, when a good reason for the omission is difficult to find, argues strongly for the shorter reading.

I sort of like the shorter reading as I like to eat.

[Mike Vande]

Based on manuscript evidence, the word 'fasting' might be a motivated reading. Here is the translation of the NETBible and their text note.

Mar 9:29 He told them, "This kind can come out only by prayer."38

Mar 9:29

38 tc Most witnesses, even early and excellent ones (Ì45vid ?2 A C D L W ? ? Ë1,13 33 Ï lat co), have "and fasting" (??? ???????, kai n?steia) after "prayer" here. But this seems to be a motivated reading, due to the early church's emphasis on fasting (TCGNT 85; cf., e.g., 2 Clem. Mar_16:4; Pol. Phil 7:2; Did. Mar_1:3; Mar_7:4). That the most important witnesses (?* B), as well as a few others (0274 2427 k), lack ??? ???????, when a good reason for the omission is difficult to find, argues strongly for the shorter reading.

I sort of like the shorter reading as I like to eat.

Yes, well, the context of the scripture, that is, Jesus coming off the Mount of Transfiguration after a brief (I like to eat, too)period of intense prayer and fasting which culminated in His Transfiguration, tends to support the more traditional interpretation.

[Russell Roberts]

Mike,

I just thought you might be interested in an alternative translation. I'm not sure if they are right or not but the guys that translated the NETBible are sharper than I am. I just tend to read their notes.

[N.T. Wright Fan]

It's too easy to say "Why didn't you do thus-and-so" when you weren't there. Most people would be ay least somewhat timid about getting up in an unfamiliar church and calling demons out for a fight. I'd be very wary of anybody who wasn't.

The teachers who advise casting out every demon they encounter usually also say you can be healthy, wealthy and happy all the days of your life if you just have enough of faith and know who you are iin Christ. If you don't believe that (you can correct me if you do), you probably don't really think she should have started casting out demons.

Were you trying to bait your sister in Christ, or do you really believe the "Faith" mesage?

I'll answer your last question first. If by the "faith" message, you mean that taught by the likes of Ken Copeland, Paula White, Mike Murdock, Benny Hinn, et al, the answer is an unequivocal "NO!"

With respect to your first comment, I think what's really "easy" is to attribute every suspicious thought that crosses our mind to some kind of demonic influence (e.g., a "Jezebel" spirit). The vocabulary of the typical American Christian is laden with words and terms like this, they have become more or less meaningless.

My intention was to point out the irony in the situation -- the worship leader was clearly "anointed," there was "wonderful worship, a great freedom and awesome presence of the Lord," and yet her husband "discerned a heavy spiritual problem with the pastor and also that many others in the church were being influenced by a Jezebel spirit."

And, of course, there were the women who were acting "conspicuously" -- whatever that means.

I'm sorry, but those kinds of amorphous accusations don't impress me. Just so much pseudo-spiritual charismatic clattery, devoid of any meaning.

[justsam]

18 "To the angel of the church in Thyatira write: 19 I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. 20 Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. 24 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): 25 Only hold on to what you have until I come. 26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations-- 27 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery'-- 27 just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give him the morning star.

I wonder if those who are pooh-pooing the idea of a "Jezebel Spirit" believe there was a woman in Thyartira literally calling herself "Jezebel", or if the Lord was identifying the kind of Spirit behind the false teaching going on in that Church? Most commentaries that I have read feel that the name is symbolic not literal.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

[Mike Vande]

My intention was to point out the irony in the situation -- the worship leader was clearly "anointed," there was "wonderful worship, a great freedom and awesome presence of the Lord," and yet her husband "discerned a heavy spiritual problem with the pastor and also that many others in the church were being influenced by a Jezebel spirit."

I had already asked why she would be inclined to accept prophecy from a woman in a church affflicted with a "Jezebel Spirit". Your remarks were somewhat superfluous, and your tone was more than a little uncalled-for. Speaking as a long-time contributor to this forum, you would garner more respect for your views here if you got to know us for a while before you started dumping sarcasm on people, particularly on the ladies.

And, of course, there were the women who were acting "conspicuously" -- whatever that means.

Since you weren't there, it would be hard for you to know what she meant. If you had seen the behavior in question, you might have agreed that is was "conspicuous". You might have gone beyond that description, calling it "untoward", or "incongruous", or possibly "silly", or even "ridiculous". Since you have so far shown yourself inclined to be less gentle in describing what you see than Jennifer, it's possible that you would have said any of those things, or any of a hundred others, if you had seen what she saw.

I'm sorry, but those kinds of amorphous accusations don't impress me. Just so much pseudo-spiritual charismatic clattery, devoid of any meaning.

I see no need to be sorry for not buying into it, I'm not sure I do, either. But you ought to be sorry for the way you treated a sister you don't even know. That's just wrong, and between you & me, dude, if the depth of a person's Christianity can be judged by how much love and grace they show others, so far you're not looking too deep. I don't think I'm much impressed by your scriptural scholarship, regardless of your Nightline appearance. It doesn't seem to have taught you to love first.

[N.T. Wright Fan]

I wonder if those who are pooh-pooing the idea of a "Jezebel Spirit" believe there was a woman in Thyartira literally calling herself "Jezebel", or if the Lord was identifying the kind of Spirit behind the false teaching going on in that Church? Most commentaries that I have read feel that the name is symbolic not literal.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

Here's my point, Sam. It seems obvious that those in the church knew full well who John was referring to -- whether or not she was acutally named "Jezebel."

Is there someone at that church leading people into sexual immorality? Is she enticing them to eat food sacrificed to idols? Mrs. Smith said that there were "many...in the church...being influenced by a Jezebel spirit."
I assert that Mrs. Smith's verbiage was chosen solely because it sounds sound "spiritual." It would have sounded odd to say:

"The worship was wonderful, but I strongly suspect the pastor and many others in the church are involved in sexual immorality."

Yet, from what I can tell, that is basically what she means.

Please tell me: what is the "Jezebel" spirit? Is it a demon? If so, can it be in more than one place at a time? If so, how is that? If it is active in the church Mrs. Smith visited, need I worry about it here in my locale? Please tell me upon what scripture this belief is based.