a few years back

[Pastor Gary]

Gen 3:16 Then the LORD said to the woman, "You will suffer terribly when you give birth. But you will still desire your husband, and he will rule over you."

My understanding of that verse is radically different than yours. 180 degrees.

[stevenson]

would you care to enlighten?

[Pastor Gary]

would you care to enlighten?

Enlighten? Not sure, but I will elaborate.

Here's my understanding of Genesis 3:16 --
To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

This is part of God's pronouncement of a curse for disobedience. Some interpret (mistakenly, IMHO) the phrase "Your desire will be for your husband" to speak of sexual desire for the husband; what kind of punishment would THAT be?

The same Hebrew word for DESIRE is also used in Genesis 4:7 as a reference to sin's desire is to enslave Cain -- to possess or control him.
"But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

The Lord instructs Cain to master sin, to rule over it. This is the same word desire, and a similar conflict that is found in Genesis 3:16 --- The woman has the same sort of desire for her husband that sin has for Cain, a desire to possess or control him."

The curse is that woman will desire to control the husband, while he is attempting to rule over her.

[Tim Elston]

The curse is that woman will desire to control the husband, while he is attempting to rule over her.

Very nice, Gary. It is safe to say that the passage needs to be interpreted from a careful, culturally and historically sensitive inductive study of the Hebrew text.

[Russell Roberts]

PG, that was an Excellent exposition. I too have studied that passage and noticed the same parallelism with Cain and sin.

[Tim Elston]

so it dose not say obey..

But other passages do. Most say submit (which I think indicates a difference in relationhip between man and wife and parents and children). It also says wives are to be subject to their husbands. Now, there is not much difference in application between obey, submit, and be subject is there? What does submit mean, if it does not mean to comply or to obey?

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Then of course, older women are ot be an exmaple and teachers to younger women. Those lessons include, among other, teaching wives ot be obedeint to their husbands.

That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Now, I think it important to point out that headship does not relieve you of your subjection to God. Rather it adds another dimension of headship to your "chain of command." The Husband becomes the direct superior with regards to authority to his wife. That said...

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

So, if your husand requires you to do something that would violate your personal relationship with God (i.e. commit personal sin) then submission is not required in such cases. That is the exception, NOT the rule.

Outside of that, biblically, submission is the wife's duty.

My heart goes out to Christian women here. Aside from the moral conscience exception that Poimen mentions, are there any theoretical or practical boundaries to the command/submission relationship? Practically speaking, what sorts of commands ought the husband make of his wife? Does any married man here actually command his wife to do things against her will? What sorts of commands are these? Does the love dictum radically affect the notion of command/submission in actual practise?

One of the key concepts that Melvin Hyatt taught us at TC was the distinction between what is cultural and what is supracultural. For example, he argued that the head covering command in Corinthians, though explicit, was nonetheless cultural, with a supracultural kernal.

Is there a cultural/supracultural distinction to be made in the command for wives to submit to their husbands? Does the supracultural principle apply such that in our culture a wife must submit to a man's command that his wife, for example, wear her hair in a certain style? Theoretically, given our culture, are there any limits to the amoral commands a husband can give to his wife? Can he, in principle, command her to do anything that does not fall under the moral conscience exception? Should he? Must she, in principle, feel obligated to submit to any amoral command? Is there any legitimate difference between how fourth-millennium BC Hebrew, first-century AD Greek Christian, and twenty-first century American Christian spouses would apply the supracultural principle found in the submission passages?

I ask this because I think Christian men owe it to women to get this right. (And they may owe it to themselves, too.)

[dbserv]

Let me start with


Here comes the "boss". I'll have to answer later.

[Poimen]

Tim,

The love dictum absolutely applies! Husbands are commanded to love their wives, even as Christ loved us. Thereby a husband shouldn't normally ask anything of his wife that is unreasonable, nor anything that is detrimental to her. Love would compel otherwise. Albeit there are exceptions -- cases where doing what is best for the wife may differ with what is most desired by the wife, etc.

Nevertheless, the fulfillment of these instructions are NOT contingent on mutuality. That is the wife is not relieved of her duty because the husband fails or abuses his. Nor is the husband relieved of his responsibility because the wife is derelict or failing in hers.

Each have an obligation to God that supersedes and compels their obligation to each other.

[Pastor Gary]

Is there a cultural/supracultural distinction to be made in the command for wives to submit to their husbands? Does the supracultural principle apply such that in our culture a wife must submit to a man's command that his wife, for example, wear her hair in a certain style? Theoretically, given our culture, are there any limits to the amoral commands a husband can give to his wife? Can he, in principle, command her to do anything that does not fall under the moral conscience exception? Should he? Must she, in principle, feel obligated to submit to any amoral command? Is there any legitimate difference between how fourth-millennium BC Hebrew, first-century AD Greek Christian, and twenty-first century American Christian spouses would apply the supracultural principle found in the submission passages?

I ask this because I think Christian men owe it to women to get this right. (And they may owe it to themselves, too.)

The Ephesians 5 passage is also, IMHO, grossly misused. The context is MUTUAL submission, and it is misleading to only discuss the wife's role without the man's role (Love as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her...) -- one doesn't work without the other.

[dolfan]

So you can rule your kids but they don't have to obey you? I'm confused!

I do not rule over my kids. I am not there boss, I am there mother. They for the most part listen to me.

One day, I won't be the boss. Today, I'm the boss. And, I'll hold that card as long as I can. Eventually, time and circumstance will require that I lay that down. But, as long as being the dad, the head, the boss or whatever is my trump card, then I'm holding it, and when it isn't the trump anymore, I'll bluff until I get called on it.

But, make no mistake, today, I'm the boss.

[c u there]

Poimen with you I agree. A husband who is demanding and bossy might receive rebellion from his wife. A husband who shows love for his wife as Christ loves the church, will probably receive devotion. When we are loved like that it is easy to want to please your husband. When the husband has to make tough decisions, its so much easier if he can do so with love and not just because he is the Man(boss) whatever.

[RaceRunner]

It's amazing how men think they understand women.

And the KJV says "to thy husband"...which is the true meaning of this scripture.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Eve disobeyed God because she desired (in this instance - coveted, lusted after) the ability to be just like God...because satan whispered to her..."For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Because of her sin her punishment (and that of all women) is as follows:

1. Multiply sorrow (worrisomeness, that is, labor or pain: - sorrow, toil)
2. And Conception (pregnancy: - conception)
3. In sorrow (an earthen vessel; usually (painful) toil; also a pang (whether of body or mind): - grievous, idol, labor) bring forth children (to bear young)
4. Thy desire (in this instance: stretching, longing) will be to thy husband
5. And he shall rule (dominion, governor, reign, rule, have power) over thee.

In the garden, the perfect arrangement had been created. God ruled over Adam and Eve (with Eve as Adam's help meet).

At the introduction of sin into the world...the new chain of Spiritual command to those who served God would be God-Adam-Eve..... or God- Husband-Wife. The world hates this arrangement.

Eve, who desired to be like God, would now have to answer to, be subject to, her husband's rule and dominion.

And her stretching (to cause to reach or continue, to extend over a continuous period ) and her longing (to be suitable or fitting) (Webster's Archaic definition) would be to (towards) her husband.

Desire / Longing in this sense does not have a sexual or coveting connotation at this time.

The desire/longing is to be suitable and fitting to her husband.

Suitable; adapted to a use or purpose, satisfying propriety : ABLE , QUALIFIED

Fitting: of a kind appropriate to the situation


1Co 7:34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection (to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto ) to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

1Co 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.


Any woman knows this:

She longs for the love of her husband, his attention, his good will. She sometimes if fortunate to have it, other times she is not.

Most Women (especially Christian ones) spend huge amounts of time trying to figure out how to please her husband, figuring out how to make their marriage better, and create marital harmony.

She will clean, cook, dress and do much just to gain one word of appreciation and to see the gleam of pride in his eye for her.

Her husband's attitude, personality, self-discipline or lack of, faith or lack of, has great bearing on her life and the life of her children; creating the direction her life will take. He has the power to make her happy or miserable with just one word, look, his presence or his absence.

A husband can elevate his family to great heights of faith or lower them to despair. He can be their head in Faith and Worship. Or he can be their head to sin and destruction.

Likewise women have the same power if she chooses: "Pro 14:1 Every wise woman buildeth her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands."

Here is the secret:
Women need one thing, To be told and shown "I love you", every day.

If they have this...you will find that women will literally kill themselves to take care of their husbands and family.


HUSBANDS RESPONSIBILITIES:

1Pe 3:7-9 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.... Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

1Co 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

Eph 5:23-25 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Eph 5:28-30 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Col 3:17-19 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.


REMEMBER WIVES:
Pro 12:4 A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.

Pro 31:26-28 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.


Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

[Pastor Bill]

so it dose not say obey..

Actually a verse that may fit this better uses the word "submit" comes from another similar verse in Ephesians 5, but it's important to read not only the requirements of the wife, but the responsibilities of the husband as well.

[Pastor Bill]

The Ephesians 5 passage is also, IMHO, grossly misused. The context is MUTUAL submission, and it is misleading to only discuss the wife's role without the man's role (Love as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her...) -- one doesn't work without the other.

OK, PG had said it already, but this is the most important part, you have to keep reading, honestly the responsibility put on the husband is GREATER than that of the wife, while she is asked to submit, he to give himself completely even to the point of self sacrifice.

but then again, most prefer to pick and choose what to believe like you would at a buffet.

[RaceRunner]

The Ephesians 5 passage is also, IMHO, grossly misused. The context is MUTUAL submission, and it is misleading to only discuss the wife's role without the man's role (Love as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her...) -- one doesn't work without the other.

OK, PG had said it already, but this is the most important part, you have to keep reading, honestly the responsibility put on the husband is GREATER than that of the wife, while she is asked to submit, he to give himself completely even to the point of self sacrifice.

but then again, most prefer to pick and choose what to believe like you would at a buffet.

The scriptures "Pastor Bill" is referring to are listed above in my above post, with the husband's responsibilities highlighted.

I went back and edited in: "HUSBAND'S RESPONSIBILITIES" so that they can be easily found by the men of this forum.