kurt73 wrote:We must first evangelize or we do not have anyone to teach. A lot of churches are so focus on teaching that they do not evangelize much and they have a church full of know it alls
I think i have been to that church...isn't it in Ohio?
It's the gospel folks.....
Moderators: Pastor Gary, The J2 Mod Squad
How can one be saved and know not thier sins that they are saved from?
Repentance
1. Recognition of sin in our lives.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
2. Heartfelt sorrow over our sin.
As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. (2 Corinthians 7:9-10)
3. Confession of our sin.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
4. Turning from sin and changing our behavior.
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. (Matthew 3:8)
[I] declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. (Acts 26:20)
Repentance
1. Recognition of sin in our lives.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
2. Heartfelt sorrow over our sin.
As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death. (2 Corinthians 7:9-10)
3. Confession of our sin.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
4. Turning from sin and changing our behavior.
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. (Matthew 3:8)
[I] declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. (Acts 26:20)
Last edited by beckrl on April 27th, 2009, 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kurt73 wrote:We must first evangelize or we do not have anyone to teach. A lot of churches are so focus on teaching that they do not evangelize much and they have a church full of know it alls
So, since everyone has their gifts, talents or abilities....and everyone is needed...what are ya'll?
Dr. Ron says he is an Evangelist at heart.
Paul is a Missionary.
PG is a Pastor.
Rambo likes to teach.
I enjoy teaching on discipleship, etc.
What about ya'll's? (I meant this to everybody, not just Kurt73)
I don't have to prove God's existance. He's already proven that. I just have to prove that He lives within me.
For the GRACE of God that BRINGETH Salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, DENYING ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should LIVE soberly, righteously, and godly, IN THIS PRESENT WORLD; Titus 2:11-12
For the GRACE of God that BRINGETH Salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, DENYING ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should LIVE soberly, righteously, and godly, IN THIS PRESENT WORLD; Titus 2:11-12
It's the gospel folks.....
I am so glad to see you all getting involved in this thread.
First I speak with much love to you all. I do deal with homosexuals on a daily basis. I preach to several every Sunday, teach many who have left that lifestyle, and counsel many more. I have never condemned any of them.....the Holy Spirit does his wonderful work in them and I don't have to make it too much of an issue. They know I do not "accept" their lifestyle as Godly. They are thankful for the love they recieve.
One of my best workers was Miss Gay Atlanta. She is married now with children....No one told her she was in sin.....the Holy Spirit dealt her....
She came to know Christ watching a tv evangelist.....
What I am saying is that "of course, sin is an issue"...but we are not the ones who convict people....that is the job of the Holy Spirit...Then we disciple them and teach them and baptize them.......
I still maintain that it is not necessary to "preach" on particular sins.....but rather that we ARE sinners in need of a saviour.
Thanks Paul....you understand....
First I speak with much love to you all. I do deal with homosexuals on a daily basis. I preach to several every Sunday, teach many who have left that lifestyle, and counsel many more. I have never condemned any of them.....the Holy Spirit does his wonderful work in them and I don't have to make it too much of an issue. They know I do not "accept" their lifestyle as Godly. They are thankful for the love they recieve.
One of my best workers was Miss Gay Atlanta. She is married now with children....No one told her she was in sin.....the Holy Spirit dealt her....
She came to know Christ watching a tv evangelist.....
What I am saying is that "of course, sin is an issue"...but we are not the ones who convict people....that is the job of the Holy Spirit...Then we disciple them and teach them and baptize them.......
I still maintain that it is not necessary to "preach" on particular sins.....but rather that we ARE sinners in need of a saviour.
Thanks Paul....you understand....
Dr. Ron
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Re: It's the gospel folks.....
Dr. Ron wrote:
I still maintain that it is not necessary to "preach" on particular sins.....but rather that we ARE sinners in need of a saviour.
I may be in the minority here, but I disagree with you on this one my friend. I realize that you don't need my approval.
I actually preached a sermon concerning these things on Sunday. Moral Relativism is weakening the church in these last days, and the enemy would like nothing more than for us to be passive about the FULL doctrine of Christ.
We need modern day Apostles who will protect God's word, not compromise it.
You seem to be advocating emphasis upon a message of love (Joel Osteen), but Paul included both the works of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit in his sermon to the Galatians.
Galatians 5:16-24
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose."Jim Elliot - Missionary Martyr
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Re: It's the gospel folks.....
Dr. Ron wrote:
I still maintain that it is not necessary to "preach" on particular sins.....but rather that we ARE sinners in need of a saviour.
psablesI may be in the minority here, but I disagree with you on this one my friend. I realize that you don't need my approval.
We need modern day Apostles who will protect God's word, not compromise it.
You seem to be advocating emphasis upon a message of love (Joel Osteen), but Paul included both the works of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit in his sermon to the Galatians.
I cannot agree with your assesment. to preach the love of Christ, his compassion and his care for all mankind, both saved and unsaved is the only thing that will effect cahnge.
To understand His love is to understand His merit, to understand his merit is to understand deliverence from any thing that binds us and holds us in bondage (homosexuality, addictions or whatever). You will never understand his merit apart from his love and compassion.
I do not see Dr. Ron's approach nor mine or others as Moral Relativitism. No one is wateringdown sin, nor the conquences of sin. I certinally do not see it as watering down the gospel.
I received an email this morning from our director in Burma. Great persecutions is taking place among the christians there. He informed me that our bible students just returned from a village that were animist. the student preached the love of Xhrist, His concern for them and the entire village was converted and received christ.
We could approach them and judge them, condemn then, belittle them and their belief. Our let them know that even in their idolitry and sin, someone loved them enough to go to the cross for them. I promise you from many years of experience all over this world and in situations that few have ever been in. the latter workd much better.
Our pastors will now work to dicsiple them and help them get a strong biblical foundations. then they will see the the sin they came ouot of and be thankful to their Lord and Savior.
This is not an either or issue.
You cannot effectively love and minister to others when you are obsessed with protecting
and preserving yourself.
and preserving yourself.
It's the gospel folks.....
Paul, you are so right. I am not a moral relativist. I agree with you.
Incidentially, much of what we preach against here in USA is cultural anyway. Much of it is not relevant in other countries and cultures.
Is sin sin? Yes, and I denounce it. I just don't see a need to preach to the choir every Sunday. It is like we used to preach on the church all the time. You could get a real shout going at the State Convention if you preached "she is the only one of her mother"....but what of discipleship....?
I stand by my statements.
Incidentially, much of what we preach against here in USA is cultural anyway. Much of it is not relevant in other countries and cultures.
Is sin sin? Yes, and I denounce it. I just don't see a need to preach to the choir every Sunday. It is like we used to preach on the church all the time. You could get a real shout going at the State Convention if you preached "she is the only one of her mother"....but what of discipleship....?
I stand by my statements.
Dr. Ron
You keep referring to the "Gospel of the love of Christ." That is not the Gospel. The Gospel is what His love led Him to do which is die on the cross for our sins.
Paul said He preached Christ CRUCIFIED. (1Cor 1:23)
Prior to that he said, "The preaching of the CROSS is to them that perish, foolishness..." (1 Cor 1:18)
In 1 Cor 15:1-4 Paul said, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
According to this you think Paul's gospel included sin?
I understand that preaching about sin ALONE is pointless but preaching about sin for the purpose of convincing one of their need for a Saviour is Biblical and appropriate.
The Bible does speak about preaching the Grace of God but that includes how grace was shown and why we needed grace and not wages.
"Twas grace that taught my heart to FEAR AND grace my FEARS relieved..."
Paul said He preached Christ CRUCIFIED. (1Cor 1:23)
Prior to that he said, "The preaching of the CROSS is to them that perish, foolishness..." (1 Cor 1:18)
In 1 Cor 15:1-4 Paul said, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
According to this you think Paul's gospel included sin?
I understand that preaching about sin ALONE is pointless but preaching about sin for the purpose of convincing one of their need for a Saviour is Biblical and appropriate.
The Bible does speak about preaching the Grace of God but that includes how grace was shown and why we needed grace and not wages.
"Twas grace that taught my heart to FEAR AND grace my FEARS relieved..."
Re: It's the gospel folks.....
pastorables wrote:Dr. Ron wrote:
I still maintain that it is not necessary to "preach" on particular sins.....but rather that we ARE sinners in need of a saviour.
I may be in the minority here, but I disagree with you on this one my friend. I realize that you don't need my approval.
I actually preached a sermon concerning these things on Sunday. Moral Relativism is weakening the church in these last days, and the enemy would like nothing more than for us to be passive about the FULL doctrine of Christ.
We need modern day Apostles who will protect God's word, not compromise it.
You seem to be advocating emphasis upon a message of love (Joel Osteen), but Paul included both the works of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit in his sermon to the Galatians.
Galatians 5:16-24
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
you are not in the minority at all it just seems that way. The apostle Paul dealt with sin Directly with the people. He addressed and preached against many different sins.
It seems to be getting closer to just preach salvation and then they are on there own,the type of thinking that says " it is not my responsibility to preach the entire bible "
(which includes different sins)
How would a new convert learn????
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[Pastorbps"]
The gospel message is the cross, christ crucified, dead, risen again, sitting at the right hand of God waiting to return for us. it was his love for you and I and his willingness to pay the price, while we were yet sinners, he who knew no sin became sin, what greater love have a man that he would lay down his life......if that isn't love. The entirety pf the word of God from beginning to end is void had Christ not been willing to do the will of the Father which was accomplished because of his love for the father and us.
Jesus did not die for the gospel, it was his love even unto death that gave us the gospel and the blessed hope that we all cling to.
To many today equate what we say as the love of Christ as some kinda weakness, for a lack of better terms, sissy, soft, or afraid to call sin, sin. That is so far from the truth it is beyond addressing.
You keep referring to the "Gospel of the love of Christ." That is not the Gospel. The Gospel is what His love led Him to do which is die on the cross for our sins.
The gospel message is the cross, christ crucified, dead, risen again, sitting at the right hand of God waiting to return for us. it was his love for you and I and his willingness to pay the price, while we were yet sinners, he who knew no sin became sin, what greater love have a man that he would lay down his life......if that isn't love. The entirety pf the word of God from beginning to end is void had Christ not been willing to do the will of the Father which was accomplished because of his love for the father and us.
Jesus did not die for the gospel, it was his love even unto death that gave us the gospel and the blessed hope that we all cling to.
To many today equate what we say as the love of Christ as some kinda weakness, for a lack of better terms, sissy, soft, or afraid to call sin, sin. That is so far from the truth it is beyond addressing.
You cannot effectively love and minister to others when you are obsessed with protecting
and preserving yourself.
and preserving yourself.
It's the gospel folks.....
Some of you are missing my point all together.
I am not talking about the idea of "neutralizing" sin. I don't believe in cheap grace either.
If you ever heard Billy Graham,who is considered by all intelligent Christians as the greatest soul winner of the last century, he never preached against a particular "sin". He preached against SIN. That is what separates men from God. He never stood up and delcared that if one smoked he was on his way to hell as many of us did......and now have to recant. He preached that sin (all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God) separates us from God and that through "faith by grace" we are saved.....that not of ourselves.
Paul's letters were more to the christians than they were to the sinners in most cases. He "taught" them and "discipled" them after conversion.
I have never preached a cigarette out of someone's mouth. I have never preached a beer out of someone's hand. Nor has anyone else.
It takes Holy Spirit conviction to bring a man to the knowledge of his sins....what ever area they are in. Many christians refuse to hear Him when he convicts them of their biggotry, sloth, coveteousness, slander, gossip, stife,. and on and on......
Just let some of this settle in. I can't reach people while I am telling them how stupid they are, how vile they are, how ignorant they are,...I reach them by saying " Just as I am with out one plea.....is that His blood was shed for me."
I am not talking about the idea of "neutralizing" sin. I don't believe in cheap grace either.
If you ever heard Billy Graham,who is considered by all intelligent Christians as the greatest soul winner of the last century, he never preached against a particular "sin". He preached against SIN. That is what separates men from God. He never stood up and delcared that if one smoked he was on his way to hell as many of us did......and now have to recant. He preached that sin (all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God) separates us from God and that through "faith by grace" we are saved.....that not of ourselves.
Paul's letters were more to the christians than they were to the sinners in most cases. He "taught" them and "discipled" them after conversion.
I have never preached a cigarette out of someone's mouth. I have never preached a beer out of someone's hand. Nor has anyone else.
It takes Holy Spirit conviction to bring a man to the knowledge of his sins....what ever area they are in. Many christians refuse to hear Him when he convicts them of their biggotry, sloth, coveteousness, slander, gossip, stife,. and on and on......
Just let some of this settle in. I can't reach people while I am telling them how stupid they are, how vile they are, how ignorant they are,...I reach them by saying " Just as I am with out one plea.....is that His blood was shed for me."
Dr. Ron
Just let some of this settle in. I can't reach people while I am telling them how stupid they are, how vile they are, how ignorant they are,...I reach them by saying " Just as I am with out one plea.....is that His blood was shed for me."
ummmm do you think people here say to a sinner that visits that they are a horrible person and start listing their sins?
I am so confused...of course you just preach salvation to a new convert just as he is, then you disciple him. I have always preached you do not have to clean up before getting saved, he will clean you up. Now that does not mean we only preach salvation and leave off the rest of it.
I have never known anyone to tell someone their sins before they are saved....... Everyone I know preach "Christ can change your life"
It's the gospel folks.....
One love,
While you may have the spirit of humility, you and I both know you have heard preachers get on rants about particular "sins" and just ride that horse to death.
While most of the folks sitting there agree and they all have a big ole time cause they ain't doing any of that evil stuff.!!!!
I began this thread to address the issue of "speach hate" causing us to lose our ability to preach against sin. I have never heard "one" sermon on homosexuality able to cover the subject very well. I have sat through hours of classes and still don't know all the answers.
My point is that preachers need to use wisdom in the presentation of the gospel. Paul also said, "I became all things to all men, that I might by all means win some".....Do you think he became a homosexual to reach them? No, of course not. But he had to at least tolerate them to reach them.
That is all I am saying. If you preach sermons of intollerance, you will alienate people and they won't hear your gospel.
While you may have the spirit of humility, you and I both know you have heard preachers get on rants about particular "sins" and just ride that horse to death.
While most of the folks sitting there agree and they all have a big ole time cause they ain't doing any of that evil stuff.!!!!
I began this thread to address the issue of "speach hate" causing us to lose our ability to preach against sin. I have never heard "one" sermon on homosexuality able to cover the subject very well. I have sat through hours of classes and still don't know all the answers.
My point is that preachers need to use wisdom in the presentation of the gospel. Paul also said, "I became all things to all men, that I might by all means win some".....Do you think he became a homosexual to reach them? No, of course not. But he had to at least tolerate them to reach them.
That is all I am saying. If you preach sermons of intollerance, you will alienate people and they won't hear your gospel.
Dr. Ron
It's the gospel folks.....
Come on guys....you are really not trying to get it.
I know all about John the Baptist.....and his preaching.....but I assure you he did not win all those people to Christ and gain a great following just preaching against adultry. He only addressed it when it became an issue that had to be dealt with......and only after he was certain he had baptized "the one".
AGAIN.....I am not saying to "neutralize" sin. I am not saying compromise. I am not saying offer "cheap grace"....and you all know it.
I am saying that it is the preaching of the "good news" that saves, and sets men free.
If your methods are producing more results than Billy Graham then by all means share......
I know all about John the Baptist.....and his preaching.....but I assure you he did not win all those people to Christ and gain a great following just preaching against adultry. He only addressed it when it became an issue that had to be dealt with......and only after he was certain he had baptized "the one".
AGAIN.....I am not saying to "neutralize" sin. I am not saying compromise. I am not saying offer "cheap grace"....and you all know it.
I am saying that it is the preaching of the "good news" that saves, and sets men free.
If your methods are producing more results than Billy Graham then by all means share......
Dr. Ron
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