Kaufman baby death update

[dolfan]

I know quite a few TCOG folks, and I've known them to use doctors. In fact, I don't know any of them personally who haven't. All that to say this: they don't all have the same view. Stephen Smith may seem to be talking from both sides of his mouth, but I'd have to say I'd give him credit for at least coming out and speaking the "official" view even if he personally believes a person is less faithful for using a doctor/medicine, etc. I do hope he brushes his teeth with toothpaste (a medicine) recommended by the ADA (medical advice).

[one love]

I have never been to a TCOG service, however I have talked with several "concerned" folk. and they weren't taught that it is a sin to take medications or see a doctor, but the peer pressure was extreme, intimating that there is a lack of faith if they did.

I wonder what state that was in. There is a state that has been of this belief more then others. That existed in COGOP as well and to my knowledge some still believe in No doctors in COGOP , just very few. I have never heard it was a sin to go to the doctor. If that was taught it was taught WRONG and has nothing to do with our teachings at all.

[RamboPreacher]

I have never been to a TCOG service, however I have talked with several "concerned" folk. and they weren't taught that it is a sin to take medications or see a doctor, but the peer pressure was extreme, intimating that there is a lack of faith if they did.

I wonder what state that was in. There is a state that has been of this belief more then others. That existed in COGOP as well and to my knowledge some still believe in No doctors in COGOP , just very few. I have never heard it was a sin to go to the doctor. If that was taught it was taught WRONG and has nothing to do with our teachings at all.

as I said, they didn't say it WAS taught (that it was a sin), only that there was peer-pressure, intimating/alluding that they were less than "spiritual", because they had less faith - if they did participate in the medication/doctor visits. and the states are Iowa and Tennessee. that I participated in and overheard conversations to that effect.

[Full Quiver]

Onelove, I never told that reporter that I pastored in TCoG and when i tried to contact him to correct the story he did not return my call. I told him specifically that I pastored in TCOGNC. I have NOTHING to hide and am an open book in this regard. I have no secrets here.

Blessed, you are mistaken about me.

If you have read the July 11 or 12 article, you know that some of what Full Quiver makes known to the writer are not facts. For instance, he comes across that he left TCOG because they were too strict on this issue.

That maybe your perception of the article but i know what I told the man and i know what was written. I said i left because I was tired of the hypocrisy and we were speaking of TCoGNC. Why does he not differentiate? Don't ask me but probably because the entire situation with the splits is a joke, a shame, and semantics. It's all a power struggle and it continues even today.

Pastor Gary, I'd ask that you remove poimen's statements. He is a liar, is spreading continual falsehoods, and REFUSES to approach me privately. I have more than once went to him privately and he has not once responded. Tell me who has tried to resolve this Biblically with that being said? I consider chris hart's comments to be slanderous and I ask you to rebuke him and remove his post.

chris has no idea of what he speaks. I was contacted by that reporter and from what I understand he was contacted by several present TCoGers. I have been contacted by several TCoG ministers and even bishops. I don't see where any of the details are Chris Hart's business. He claims i have an axe to grind, that I am a busy body (pot meet kettle), I am bitter, etc. Well I'd be glad to introduce him to a few ministers at cedar ridge church that can testify very differently. I sought counsel due to my hurt, something "Bishop" Hart NEVER offered me as a friend. I received that counsel and was healed by the Lord's grace and love. My friends and church mates can testify of this in me. I am the men's ministry director at CRC and the men can tell you that I have learned from my religious past and use it as a schoolmaster to constantly draw me to truth. Many have testified that my testimony has moved them to a closer walk with the Lord.

I have been nothing but good to Chris Hart. i defended his reputation to the tenth degree when he left TCoG. I stepped out and stood in front of many flaming arrows. I continued to befriend him even after he stabbed me in the back in Oct. 2003. I believed his nonsense story when I was pastoring in TCOGNC, I invited him to minister in my home when i pastored Sanctuary, i fed him, paid him well (better than all others according to his testimony), fueled his vehicle, spoke well of him, gave him free reign in my home and church, and allowed him to be himself (to my trouble) with my congregation. I am ashamed that I have been so naive but Christ knows all about it.

So please Gary remove his malicious attack as he can not substantiate any of his own words.


Everyone that knows stephen and vicki Smith know how they believe. Vicki openly says seeking docs is sinful and that CoGop taught against it, refused to license ministers, and even take in members that sought medical care. Why is it that their children and grandchildren have never been to a doctor at all if they don't believe there is wrong in it? Why does poimen try and protect smith? I suppose only God knows. The truth is chris knows better.

Sure many TCogers go to docs but the Smith crowd says they have little faith, are covenant breakers, and will find themselves on the outside of TCoG eventually. smith is obviously picking his battles for now and allowed tha ruling to the floor last year to ease some folks. as for unanimous agreement, that term is very subjective. Many never agree with things but just refuse to speak it in the microphone. Their silence does not equal unanimous agreement folks.

[Full Quiver]

However, I have never heard it preached or taught by anyone in The Church of God that it is a sin to take medicine or go to a doctor

Bishop ammons, do you consider AJ Tomlinson to have been a member of the same group as you? If so, what did he say, write, and preach on the subject?

[Poimen]

Pastor Gary, I'd ask that you remove poimen's statements. He is a liar, is spreading continual falsehoods, and REFUSES to approach me privately. I have more than once went to him privately and he has not once responded. Tell me who has tried to resolve this Biblically with that being said? I consider chris hart's comments to be slanderous and I ask you to rebuke him and remove his post.

chris has no idea of what he speaks. I was contacted by that reporter and from what I understand he was contacted by several present TCoGers. I have been contacted by several TCoG ministers and even bishops. I don't see where any of the details are Chris Hart's business. He claims i have an axe to grind, that I am a busy body (pot meet kettle), I am bitter, etc. Well I'd be glad to introduce him to a few ministers at cedar ridge church that can testify very differently. I sought counsel due to my hurt, something "Bishop" Hart NEVER offered me as a friend. I received that counsel and was healed by the Lord's grace and love. My friends and church mates can testify of this in me. I am the men's ministry director at CRC and the men can tell you that I have learned from my religious past and use it as a schoolmaster to constantly draw me to truth. Many have testified that my testimony has moved them to a closer walk with the Lord.

I have been nothing but good to Chris Hart. i defended his reputation to the tenth degree when he left TCoG. I stepped out and stood in front of many flaming arrows. I continued to befriend him even after he stabbed me in the back in Oct. 2003. I believed his nonsense story when I was pastoring in TCOGNC, I invited him to minister in my home when i pastored Sanctuary, i fed him, paid him well (better than all others according to his testimony), fueled his vehicle, spoke well of him, gave him free reign in my home and church, and allowed him to be himself (to my trouble) with my congregation. I am ashamed that I have been so naive but Christ knows all about it.

So please Gary remove his malicious attack as he can not substantiate any of his own words.

Danny,

Regarding your above clarification I do owe you an apology. If I understand what you are saying you did not make first contact with the paper -- which I intimated when I used the word "called". I apologize for that and ask your forgiveness for that. I will now correct that by swapping the term "called" with "spoke with them".

Pastor Gary,

Probably much of the reason Bishop Smith responded at all is because Danny ALREADY spoke with them (he is the purported former TCOG pastor), sticking his nose where it don't belong, and gave an interview to the paper misrepresenting, distorting, and (no doubt) maliciously portraying TCOG as requiring abstention from medical aid or care. Yes, I read it myself. So it's not hear say.

The guy is a sower of discord, a busybody, and a talebearer. Please take anything he says regarding this and TCOG with a grain of salt. He has some sort of vendetta and vindictiveness towards TCOG, and is using the Kauffman's trouble as an opportunity to rail on TCOG as a whole.

It's disgraceful really.

Concerning your attempt(s) to speak with me privately, a PM that says "Who do you think you are?" Is not an attempt at private reconciliation. I know not of any other attempt.

As for me contacting you privately, I have no Scriptural reason for doing so. I have merely responded , in turn, against your public ranting, misrepresentation, and disdain in these matters.

As for your befriending me and my reputation, I thank you for that. I will not speak further of the way I did that for you as well.

As for any trouble you say I caused you and/or your congregation during my visit and ministry at Sanctuary -- that's the first I've heard of it. AND, that's the first negative anyone has ever said in my hearing about that time there -- including yourself. Plus, it differs with the reports given on this very site at that time about my visit and serving among you.

Nevertheless, if I did you or your congregation some wrong, in any way, I am sorry and I ask you to forgive me.

As for any other perceived wrongs mentioned in your reply above (i.e. my supposed stab in your back in 2003, and the "nonsense" story you say I gave you when you were in TCOG-NC), well I guess only God knows. BUT I did nothing ill toward you in any of those situations. I even went so far as to more or less accept blame and apologize in the interest of being a peace keeper with you.

As for why I have spoken up and against your postings here on this issue, it is simply because I detest the cruelty and apparent vindictiveness of your responses. Vengeance is the Lord's -- not ours. And if the Kaufman's or TCOG are at fault in the death of this child then it is God who should dole out vengeance -- not us fellow believers.

Besides, I remind you again, it is no less than the defense and mercy I offered on behalf of you and yours when you felt as strongly or stronger about practicing your faith in this fashion with regard to healing.

Soften your heart Danny. Steal away somewhere and pray this through. Don't let a vengeful or prideful spirit taint your sincerity or passion further. Believe it or not, I love you.

I wish you good and not harm.

[justsam]

I don't know what exposure others have had to this issue in the COGOP, but I do know that the first church I ever preached in was the COGOP in Sumner, WA. When I visited there, I saw a White Wing published tract against medicine, and heard a testimony greeted with hearty amens by a man talking about how he stopped taking decongestants for his sinuses based on the church's teachings that taking medicine was evidence of a lack of faith.

I have also heard older COGOP ministers state that they had to affirm in writing that they would not seek medical care for themselves or their children in order to be licensed.

It is clear from the information that I have received that the COGOP has had doctrines against the use of medicine and receiving medical care.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

[RamboPreacher]

I don't know what exposure others have had to this issue in the COGOP, but I do know that the first church I ever preached in was the COGOP in Sumner, WA. When I visited there, I saw a White Wing published tract against medicine, and heard a testimony greeted with hearty amens by a man talking about how he stopped taking decongestants for his sinuses based on the church's teachings that taking medicine was evidence of a lack of faith.

I have also heard older COGOP ministers state that they had to affirm in writing that they would not seek medical care for themselves or their children in order to be licensed.

It is clear from the information that I have received that the COGOP has had doctrines against the use of medicine and receiving medical care.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

Sam, I understood this paradigm to be true when I first came to share services with the COGOP. that was from my comparitive religions studies (academia, not experience), and building the splinter charts of the COG (before being part of the COGOP).

However, when I did start to participate in the COGOP, I never actually experienced this from any service or teaching that I was in, or under. However, taking that with a grain of salt, since I am relatively newbee at being a COGOP-flag-waver, since only about half a dozen years.

[Shepherd]

However, I have never heard it preached or taught by anyone in The Church of God that it is a sin to take medicine or go to a doctor

Bishop ammons, do you consider AJ Tomlinson to have been a member of the same group as you? If so, what did he say, write, and preach on the subject?

Do people think that I am that old?

AJT at times during his 40 years as General Overseer came out very strong against using medicine and going to doctors. I am not sure whether or not he held to that until his death. I am not sure, but MAT may not have used medicine or doctors in his early years, but he did before his death. It seems to me that the Tomlinson family somewhat changed their view on some of this. Please understand. I have the utmost respect for the Tomlinsons and I do not say any of this in a negative, judgmental spirit. BTW, some in the COGOP still claim AJT.

Thank you for your clarification about the reporter misrepresenting you. It smacks of sensationalism. Could you share with us anything else that he misrepresented you about? It may clarify some things.

[Full Quiver]

Save it Chris till your sincere. Still you are trying to correct me and pastor me and you do not have enough integrity to accomplish such.
To this day I deal with the semantics that you carried on while in my home. Also may I note that I invited you to attend our recent Men's retreat at CRC. I suppose I am one thing, foolish.


Bishop Ammons, please note, because I know you are versed in the subject, that CoGoP ministers basically had to denounce meds and docs in order to be licensed and that Tomlinson's writings very much show where he stood on the subject. If you truly are unaware then go have a sit down with Stephen and Vicki Smith because they are well versed no doubt.

As for the reporter, I was very clear to him that TCoG members in general go to docs, take meds, etc. I stated that Smith, his family, and many of the folks that he has pastored through the years hold firm to no docs or meds and believe that they are truly practicing the old paths. Obviously this reporter is going for all the glory and that's his business but Poimen's rant and rail is out of line. He knows the Smith's as well as anyone and knows how they believe and practice and teach. It is absurd to think that the Kaufmans picked this up on their own.

I know Teresa Letcher well, she delivered one of our children and advised on two others, and know how she feels about the Smiths as far as their tactics and pressures. Teresa ALWAYS errs on the side of caution and when contacted by the reporter I tried to convince him that Teresa would have called 911 if she felt the liberty to do so. Amazingly the very truth that she was present as a mid wife was left out of the report. I ask you, Do you find that to be very truthful?

Here's a very real question, with TCoG purporting that they are THE REAL CHURCH of GOD and all us other sheep will flow to her and Smith being God's man then shouldn't we, the other sheep, expect nothing but the utmost integrity from such an organization and God's man? If so then why is Smith avoiding this subject, why are the police reports so inaccurate, etc.?


Let the record show loud and clear that I would have never even known of this Kaufman subject had TCoG members not been talking, communicating, calling, emailing, texting, facebooking, etc. to me and my wife. If it's being a busybody and a gossip then shouldn't the bride of Christ abstain from such?!?!?! TCOG is full, absolutely FULL to the rim with such and it is disgusting but then folks like Chris Hart want to point the finger and say it's me. Go look in the mirror Chris because GUILT is written all over your face. You yourself railed against TCOG leadership when you were accused of blaspheming the Holy Ghost. You even shared that with me after I was out of TCOG. That makes you the very thing you rebuke me for so as I said you have no integrity. Your own household can't agree on things doctrinal so stay home and preach before you try and pastor others. Now are all TCOGers gossips, NO! But I tell you that at any given time that MOST are and I'd bet on it but that would be sinful and then gossip wouldn't imagine that. Come join CRC for a few weeks, carry on that way, and see if you don't find yourself in a head on collision with Pastor Ron. If I were half the person Chris says I am I would have been out just weeks after I started attending. It's been 25 months now.

[Poimen]

Wow. You're trying real hard ain't ya.

Your spirit and involvement in the matter and towards TCOG is clear for all to see just based on what you have written here on Jude 2.

And I'm not trying to pastor you man. I am confronting you peer to peer like Paul to Peter. I am trying to expose and stop your gainsaying. Though I wish your pastor would, if he has not already, "pastor you" about your behavior here. You certainly need it.

Deflect all you want. Drag up the past and twist it to suit your ravenous vitriol if you must. Make disparaging remarks with false implications regarding my marriage. It's alright -- I can handle it.

But just know, I am not your enemy. I am your friend.
And I hope that in the long run this public confrontation will help you.

[Full Quiver]

Chris, time and time again you have proven to be far from a friend. My downfall has been to fail and hear those around me that warned me.

My pastor and I have a good relationship and he is well able to speak with me and I respond like a good sheep because he is a good shepherd. Maybe one day you'll have that said of you but you are far from a Ron Hamm let alone an Apostle Paul.

Shoot, you might even take a few pointers from Bishop Ammons. I know that once you considered him a mentor but now of course you are more versed in the Scripture than he so I guess his ways are no longer your ways.

Again Pastor Gary I ask you to remove Poimen's remarks and rebuke him. Just a few weeks ago you asked me to restrain myself and now Chris Hart is playing the role of Batman and sees me as the Joker.

[Poimen]

Chris, time and time again you have proven to be far from a friend. My downfall has been to fail and hear those around me that warned me.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It seems we are fast becoming peers more like unto Paul and Barnabas now than like unto Paul and Peter.

My pastor and I have a good relationship and he is well able to speak with me and I respond like a good sheep because he is a good shepherd. Maybe one day you'll have that said of you but you are far from a Ron Hamm let alone an Apostle Paul.

That's good. I am glad you respect Pastor Ron and that he can speak into your life. We all need shepherds after the Lord's heart.

I make no claim to greatness, though I am thankful that to the sheep I pastor they feel safe and loved with me. I'm sure I am not as good a pastor as Pastor Ron, and I full well know I am no Apostle Paul. But then you know that wasn't the point of the comparison, right? It was to show that we are ministry peers.

Shoot, you might even take a few pointers from Bishop Ammons. I know that once you considered him a mentor but now of course you are more versed in the Scripture than he so I guess his ways are no longer your ways.

Indeed. I still highly respect Bishop Ammons. I call him, chat with him, receive counsel from him, and even share concerns with him. And of course I debate with him -- precisely because I know how well versed in Scripture he is, and (for the record) I seriously doubt I am as well versed, much less more versed in Scripture than he.

Guess what?
I love you Danny, despite your false witness against me.

[Full Quiver]

Chris, this entire debate is due to your false witness against me for which you say you are sorry yet you still carry on thus showing your intent. There's enough evidence here that you have not heard a word I have said to you.

[Shepherd]

Danny,

Thank God for whatever spiritual growth any of us have experienced. Consider this. What the writer reported that you said caused me anguish. Can you not see that would be upsetting to TCOG members? Thanks for your clarification. Of course, I do not have to tell you that I still am not overjoyed with all your remarks.