FOX LIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[free]

What does compassion have to do with disagreeing with the president?

[EagerBeaver]

...i am tired of people declaring war on each other because they dont like the president.

Thus the reason I don't contribute much, if at all, to political threads around here anymore.

We need another sub forum for government topics since that's all the General Discussion forum has become!

[Full Quiver]

The absolute fact is that NONE of us know the truth about this or much else but this is minor compared to ACORN.

[dawgs10]

Dawgs, there's no such thing as a big government conservative. Bush tried to sell that bill of goods, and our grandkids will be paying the bill.

im begining to think that there is no one that calls themselves conservative that has the compassion of Christ anymore. But Fox will keep attacking and so will msnbc and dolfan can fight his little war with the world around him.

[dolfan]

Government cannot be compassionate. Even the best government cannot be compassionate. I'll say this much: When Geo. W. Bush said he was a compassionate conservative, he lied. Compassionate conservative is code for big government Republican. It was a dupe and he pulled it off well. Even Don Rumsfeld was part of it, a big one. The problem with it is that it still poses a welfare state, just one reorganized along a different set of expensive social welfare-minded initiatives than the ones liberals would implement. Constitutionally, it's no better than liberalism.

What you're saying is that people like me are cheapskates and hard-hearted, and that anyone who would be not a cheapskate and soft-hearted must be something other than I am, politically speaking. That's the difference between a libertarian and a "compassionate conservative". I'm the former, you would identify yourself as the latter. Along come some well-meaning conservatives and say, "Okay, yeah, the government needs to do something for folks, but what they're proposing stinks", and we get something like socialist health care-lite, or communist-public-education-lite. We get something like 8 years of President Bush gave us, domestically speaking.

That idea finds itself in the "nation building" in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nannyism and Daddyism, that's the M.O. on the international front, too. Now, Obama has decided to reverse the commitments (regardless of your characterization) on the eastern European missile defense shield. Now, we're going to talk. We're going to do an international group hug.

That mentality, the huggy-wuggy one, is in neo-conservatism and liberalism. Now, every public service is a reason to get all misty-eyed and stop us all in our tracks and heroize the working public servant --- not for their valiance in rescue --- but for their "caring" and "understanding" in "service". This is why there was a collective taste of vomit in our mouths on 9/11 when Obama declared it a day of service.

The point being, Dawgs, that government cannot love you. Love is the fuel, the great motivator for doing everything to lift up our neighbor and ourselves. Government doing that is government that invades every province of our private lives. The problem is that for so long, generations of Americans have lived in this nation knowing no other way, oblivious to the premium on liberty that marked our existence for the first 150 years of the USA. It is almost like the Matrix --- an artificial world of grand design and general sustenance, but feeding off the submission and even captivity of automatons who, if they would only awaken, could see the oppression that has been forced upon them against their own innate instincts for liberty and prosperity. A government that you accept as loving you, one that you even believe has some minimal capacity to exercise anything in the way of virtue, has already trapped you and replaced real virtue with its own statist morals.

As I typed all that, here at our store, a former employee came in. She’s working for a doctor now, and she still works part time for us as a fill-in if someone calls in sick. She was a silly little thing, sweet as can be and just la-la-la along. Tonight, she came in to tell me all about how this light has gone on in her head. How the Obama plan is going to destroy America as we know it. How health care finance by the government’s big ol’ hand is going to destroy the business of medicine and with it actual care for all Americans. I just laughed. The sheer joy of seeing that realization. Then do you know what she said? This little blonde sweetie pie girl who is just now opening her eyes to the world of grown-ups? Know what she said to me? Irony of ironies?

“This is going to mean war.”

I’ve never once said anything remotely like that to her. Never had any substantive political discussion with her in the year and a half I’ve known her. “I feel like starting a rebellion,” she said. I laughed out loud, cackling with amazement.

This is not a battle of ideas anymore. If the government does this, it’s going to come to physical, actual blows. And, how can anyone be blamed for it? How can anyone be blamed for choosing liberty to the point of death? Why should we NOT think our government is just as tyrannical as any foreign power we’ve ever fought?

[pastorables]

im begining to think that there is no one that calls themselves conservative that has the compassion of Christ anymore. But Fox will keep attacking and so will msnbc and dolfan can fight his little war with the world around him.

With all due respect, you will not find a more compassionate person than Tim Shelton (dolfan). After hurricane Katrina, I was blessed to spend many hours with Tim compiling and delivering goods all over coastal Alabama and Mississippi. The bible instructs us to know those who labor among us and I know Tim Shelton.

pa

[Pastor Gary]

Dawgs, there's no such thing as a big government conservative. Bush tried to sell that bill of goods, and our grandkids will be paying the bill.

im begining to think that there is no one that calls themselves conservative that has the compassion of Christ anymore. But Fox will keep attacking and so will msnbc and dolfan can fight his little war with the world around him.

You seem to be confusing "compassion" with "confiscation." If I see someone in need, and raid YOUR checking account to take care of that need, am I showing compassion? Are you?

[rjjunior]

NY TIMES: The Fallout of a Reversal on Missile Defense
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/the-fallout-of-a-reversal-on-missile-defense/?hp

Even the NY Times calls it a reversal. Playing semantics as you are, IS, by definition, SPIN.

[dawgs10]

im begining to think that there is no one that calls themselves conservative that has the compassion of Christ anymore. But Fox will keep attacking and so will msnbc and dolfan can fight his little war with the world around him.

With all due respect, you will not find a more compassionate person than Tim Shelton (dolfan). After hurricane Katrina, I was blessed to spend many hours with Tim compiling and delivering goods all over coastal Alabama and Mississippi. The bible instructs us to know those who labor among us and I know Tim Shelton.

pa

for those that dont know him personaly they must go by his posts. i have told him a few times in these debates and others that i dont know him and i am sure he is a good person. be careful how you read what is being posted. dolfan himself has said its war. he has shown no compassion for people stuggling in a system that keeps many hard workers working hard for people that provide a very small check weekly and does trap them into jobs because of the lack of choices in a bad economy. do i think dolfan is a bad guy. NO. do i disagree with someone that i think is a christaian say ever man for himself and if you dont make it to bad, off to the slums with you. YES. ebenezar scooge was based on this mindset. so of course not!!! im sure if i meet dolfan on the street i would think he is a great guy. personaly i dont think i am bad guy myself. i use this as a way to vent. i dont talk about this stuff to people around me, nothing good could come out of it. but this is why we have discussion forums.

[Full Quiver]

The Constitution does not empower our government to be compassionate.

[pastorables]

Are we being sold out? What does it say when Putin is praising the U.S.?


http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... O320090918

SOCHI, Russia (Reuters) - Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said on Friday a decision by the United States to scrap plans for a missile defense shield in Europe was positive.

Putin, speaking to investors in the Black Sea resort of Sochi, said he now expected the United States to back a bid by Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan to join the World Trade Organization.

[dawgs10]

Are we being sold out? What does it say when Putin is praising the U.S.?


http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... O320090918

SOCHI, Russia (Reuters) - Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said on Friday a decision by the United States to scrap plans for a missile defense shield in Europe was positive.

Putin, speaking to investors in the Black Sea resort of Sochi, said he now expected the United States to back a bid by Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan to join the World Trade Organization.

you wont find the truth on fox or msnbc or cnn, thats for sure!!

[dolfan]

Dawgs, I do feel for those people who truly cannot afford insurance or health care for reasons beyond their control. Honestly, I don't see where you would be able to say I don't. We have very, very different ideas about what compassion looks like. To me, the bottom line is that people are better off when they make good decisions, and when in spite of those good decisions they lack something, it is the church that has an answer but not the government. Compassion can never involve coercion. Even if you somehow cast this as a form of biblical giving (which I think it patently is not, but let's go with it for the sake of argument), Paul said to the church at Corinth that "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion...." (2 Cor. 9:7).

You say of those who oppose this public health care finance bill that people are greedy and lack compassion. I say that when government forces you to give it through confiscation ---- even if you're in agreement with having your money confiscated by taxation and threat of fines/penalties ---- it is compulsion. To read Paul correctly here you can only conclude that this kind of taking may not be defined as "giving", and because it is compulsory, then it is something that each man should not give.

But, all that assumes that the rules of Biblical stewardship apply to how government forcibly takes your money (with or without your assent) and gives it to others. They don't. The government is not the church, neither can it be.

A necessary element of the compulsion of moral action is the knowledge of particular circumstances of people. Government cannot possess this knowledge, especially the federal government. This is one rationale for the 10th Amendment. States and their political subdivisions are in the best position to know and address the welfare of their citizens. The federal government is removed from the most intimate and most necessary forms of knowledge needed to make moral decisions. It simply lacks the capacity, even with the highest and best forms of data available to it.

But, you have bought in to the old "facts tell, stories sell" sales hook. Presidents like to tell stories. You hear them from each party in big speeches, mentioning citizens by name and hometown, telling their brief story about a struggle, and then applying a government solution to the problem to persuade people that government works for people, to give a facade of care and compassion and responsiveness. It is a smoke and mirror so that people like yourself will accept a "dirigisme" --- the government's directive control of the economy. The problem with health care in particular is that if anything in the way of federal government control of health care finance is approved, government will necessarily make decisions of what health care treatment itself is approved in specific instances when it is the least informed entity in the loop of who should be making decisions. The government will then be in the absolutely unacceptable, unconstitutional and tyrannical position of running a kind of moral/personal dirigisme, having directive power of personal health choices.

That may be okay with you and Mao and Castro and Stalin and Obama, but it isn't okay with the United States Constitution, the men who died to make us free in the first place, and the people who've fought to keep this country free since then. What defies the best of our language to describe it is that we're now in a position where we have one final choice -- fight against the U.S. Government or cow as slaves to the tyrants running it.

So, you see, this isn't about compassion or not compassion. This is about government control of citizens' lives, productivity and choices.

As to whether you find a lack of compassion in my posts, it is because (IMO) you're in that matrix I mentioned in an earlier post. I don't blame you for thinking of me as lacking compassion; I just want you to wake up from your slumber and see what's behind the veneer of what you're entertaining as truth and good.

[dawgs10]

Dawgs, I do feel for those people who truly cannot afford insurance or health care for reasons beyond their control. Honestly, I don't see where you would be able to say I don't. We have very, very different ideas about what compassion looks like. To me, the bottom line is that people are better off when they make good decisions, and when in spite of those good decisions they lack something, it is the church that has an answer but not the government. Compassion can never involve coercion. Even if you somehow cast this as a form of biblical giving (which I think it patently is not, but let's go with it for the sake of argument), Paul said to the church at Corinth that "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion...." (2 Cor. 9:7).

You say of those who oppose this public health care finance bill that people are greedy and lack compassion. I say that when government forces you to give it through confiscation ---- even if you're in agreement with having your money confiscated by taxation and threat of fines/penalties ---- it is compulsion. To read Paul correctly here you can only conclude that this kind of taking may not be defined as "giving", and because it is compulsory, then it is something that each man should not give.

But, all that assumes that the rules of Biblical stewardship apply to how government forcibly takes your money (with or without your assent) and gives it to others. They don't. The government is not the church, neither can it be.

A necessary element of the compulsion of moral action is the knowledge of particular circumstances of people. Government cannot possess this knowledge, especially the federal government. This is one rationale for the 10th Amendment. States and their political subdivisions are in the best position to know and address the welfare of their citizens. The federal government is removed from the most intimate and most necessary forms of knowledge needed to make moral decisions. It simply lacks the capacity, even with the highest and best forms of data available to it.

But, you have bought in to the old "facts tell, stories sell" sales hook. Presidents like to tell stories. You hear them from each party in big speeches, mentioning citizens by name and hometown, telling their brief story about a struggle, and then applying a government solution to the problem to persuade people that government works for people, to give a facade of care and compassion and responsiveness. It is a smoke and mirror so that people like yourself will accept a "dirigisme" --- the government's directive control of the economy. The problem with health care in particular is that if anything in the way of federal government control of health care finance is approved, government will necessarily make decisions of what health care treatment itself is approved in specific instances when it is the least informed entity in the loop of who should be making decisions. The government will then be in the absolutely unacceptable, unconstitutional and tyrannical position of running a kind of moral/personal dirigisme, having directive power of personal health choices.

That may be okay with you and Mao and Castro and Stalin and Obama, but it isn't okay with the United States Constitution, the men who died to make us free in the first place, and the people who've fought to keep this country free since then. What defies the best of our language to describe it is that we're now in a position where we have one final choice -- fight against the U.S. Government or cow as slaves to the tyrants running it.

So, you see, this isn't about compassion or not compassion. This is about government control of citizens' lives, productivity and choices.

As to whether you find a lack of compassion in my posts, it is because (IMO) you're in that matrix I mentioned in an earlier post. I don't blame you for thinking of me as lacking compassion; I just want you to wake up from your slumber and see what's behind the veneer of what you're entertaining as truth and good.

putting it in simple terms. someone in the gov. sees people without health care. says we can do something about that with the help of every citizen. and we say no. it infringes on my freedom to keep my money and spend how i see it. is the gov. person wrong to want to help. again, i have said from the beginning that i dont support obamas plan. i do support the idea of health care for everyone. so then, maybe we should ask what it will take. and by the way, laws were changed to allow slaves to go free and women and african american people to vote. sometimes we got it wrong to start with. we just have to have a spine to change it. there is an answer. you cant get past the fact that we live in the greatest country in the world. ( where less than half can afford health care).

[MacUser]

Are we being sold out? What does it say when Putin is praising the U.S.?

you wont find the truth on fox or msnbc or cnn, thats for sure!!

Is this actually an ACORN employee? Or is this Michael Moore in disguise? Come on....