Assembly Reports

[Pastor Bill]

I completely agree with you Pastor Rob, but then we are in the same state!

I don't know how it is in other states/regions, but we are blessed in KY, and have a very functional and supportive state office, great overseer, and many strong state functions (camps, retreats, training, etc).

[PastorDaniel]

the issue of secular tithe going to the SO instead of local church is being test piloted and only a suggestion...(in my understanding)...and this is specifically based on the fact that many pastor's secular tithes are paying church bills...my understanding is that this will remain optional and they are only asking...but we all know they could make it mandatory...I was licensed in the United Pentecostal Church for about 6 years and they have a license "dues" each year...this could be deducted from tithing...however, it was mandatory and it went to the IO while your tithing of ministry income went to the State Office...

[Pastor Bill]

I think in a situation with a bi-vocational pastor (like myself) it's important to remember that these are the churches that are shorter on funds in the first place (thus the reason the pastor has to work outside the ministry). So the churches with the least are where we should take the additional money from? that doesn't make sense. Pulling my non-ministry tithes away from the local church would put a large dent in the local church budget.

I think this would probably push many more smaller church just to stop abiding by these rulings.

[dawgs10]

Perhaps it is time to evaluate the effectiveness of the State office. It may be time to make innovate changes in the management of the church. Why could they not manage our local churches from 3 or 4 regional offices? Most local churches manage themselves anyway.

It has been my observation that the state bishop/overseer is a pastor's pastor and not much more. I have seen little service out of these men beyond serving our pastors. (I am not a minister). The few times I have contacted them, they referred me back to my pastor for direction.

If we did not have a state office, then we would not need a state staff, treasury, office space.....on & on. It would save $ that could be used for soul cultivation or maybe earth quake relief!

in some states this may be true but not in georgia. our state staff is a true support staff for the state level. but if states or regions cant offered it maybe there should be part time state staff or overseers that also pastor a local church.

[dawgs10]

as a licensed minister that works a part time job i will say this. the money i earn outside of my ministry is my personal money and will be tithed to my local church, period. not that i will not send my ministry tithes to state level and even offerings when the need is there. daniel, i think maybe a yearly fee for a ministers license could be an option. could be a good idea.

i say this alot and believe it to be true. everything starts at the local level and always falls back on the local level. if we are succeeding at the local level there will never be a need for money at any level. so Pastors, fix the issue. with Gods help grow your church to a strong tithe paying church and issue resolved.

[Rob]

as a licensed minister that works a part time job i will say this. the money i earn outside of my ministry is my personal money and will be tithed to my local church, period.

Is that right? I thought everything I have, I am to be a steward of. I didn't realize what is mine is mine, I thought it all belonged to the Lord.

not that i will not send my ministry tithes to state level and even offerings when the need is there. daniel, i think maybe a yearly fee for a ministers license could be an option. could be a good idea.

Fee? I could agree with an offering, but a fee? Where do we find that in the Scripture? Just wondering because I have missed that one somewhere.

i say this alot and believe it to be true. everything starts at the local level and always falls back on the local level. if we are succeeding at the local level there will never be a need for money at any level. so Pastors, fix the issue. with Gods help grow your church to a strong tithe paying church and issue resolved.

I believe this, money follows ministry. Where we are ministering there will be enough funds to do ministry. Having said that, a lack of funds could mean a lack of ministry on any level. I am called to minister not "fix" a money issue. I would rather grow a strong ministry church instead of a strong money church. If I have that I believe there will be money to do ministry!

[MacUser]

I believe this, money follows ministry. Where we are ministering there will be enough funds to do ministry. Having said that, a lack of funds could mean a lack of ministry on any level. I am called to minister not "fix" a money issue.

Wow.. Amen Bro Rob.

[dawgs10]

as a licensed minister that works a part time job i will say this. the money i earn outside of my ministry is my personal money and will be tithed to my local church, period.

Is that right? I thought everything I have, I am to be a steward of. I didn't realize what is mine is mine, I thought it all belonged to the Lord.

not that i will not send my ministry tithes to state level and even offerings when the need is there. daniel, i think maybe a yearly fee for a ministers license could be an option. could be a good idea.

Fee? I could agree with an offering, but a fee? Where do we find that in the Scripture? Just wondering because I have missed that one somewhere.

i say this alot and believe it to be true. everything starts at the local level and always falls back on the local level. if we are succeeding at the local level there will never be a need for money at any level. so Pastors, fix the issue. with Gods help grow your church to a strong tithe paying church and issue resolved.

I believe this, money follows ministry. Where we are ministering there will be enough funds to do ministry. Having said that, a lack of funds could mean a lack of ministry on any level. I am called to minister not "fix" a money issue. I would rather grow a strong ministry church instead of a strong money church. If I have that I believe there will be money to do ministry!

pastor rob you have read into this little more than maybe you should have. what i am saying is that the money i make outside of ministry is mine to tithe with as i see fit. (the local level). it is also a opportunity to give above and beyond my tithe. and yes, money follows ministry. that is what was meant in the statement i gave earlier. to many pastors in cogop and other organ. whine about sending in thithes yet never grow at the local level. if growth occurs then the money issue will be taken care of. if you really believe that everything belongs to God than you would not concern yourself when you pay some in to taxes to keep the country going that allows you the right to worship. and yes we worry to much about 10%. most people that love God with all their heart gives more than 10%. thats called offerings. and yes, if we gave more to offerings there would never be a reason for a fee or a tax. it comes back to greed again i guess.

[Rob]

pastor rob you have read into this little more than maybe you should have. what i am saying is that the money i make outside of ministry is mine to tithe with as i see fit. (the local level).

Dawgs10, I read no where in Scripture where we [you] get to tithe as you see fit. Tithing is 10%, and there is no debating or arguing that fact according to what I understand from the Scripture. I will leave room to the fact I may not understand it, and if that is the case than I guess we do get to tithe as we see fit.

it is also a opportunity to give above and beyond my tithe.

I agree and this is as you have stated offerings.

and yes, money follows ministry. that is what was meant in the statement i gave earlier. to many pastors in cogop and other organ. whine about sending in thithes yet never grow at the local level. if growth occurs then the money issue will be taken care of. if you really believe that everything belongs to God than you would not concern yourself when you pay some in to taxes to keep the country going that allows you the right to worship. and yes we worry to much about 10%.

What does taxes that I pay have to do with any thing? My earlier post about paying 13% was a tax. It is not a tithe. Tithe is 10% anything that is put on a church above 10% is a tax. All I was requesting is call it what is it. And buy they way I pay my taxes that are due also, just for the record.

most people that love God with all their heart gives more than 10%. thats called offerings. and yes, if we gave more to offerings there would never be a reason for a fee or a tax. it comes back to greed again i guess.

[jinjer]

Really Rob, it's not that hard to understand what dawgs is talking about. He certainly understands tithing, as stated in his 10% statement. Since the discussion is about bi-vocational pastors tithing being sent somewhere besides their local church, his statements are in that context. All he is saying, is that he should be able to tithe to his local church. Nothing more nothing less.

Jinjer

[dawgs10]

Really Rob, it's not that hard to understand what dawgs is talking about. He certainly understands tithing, as stated in his 10% statement. Since the discussion is about bi-vocational pastors tithing being sent somewhere besides their local church, his statements are in that context. All he is saying, is that he should be able to tithe to his local church. Nothing more nothing less.

Jinjer

thank you Jinjer, i was trying to think of yet another way to explain that in a way people could understand but you took care of it.

[RamboPreacher]

I read part of the F&S report, the part where they are recommending that bi-vocational pastor's send their tithes from their public job to the state office instead of paying it to the local church they pastor.

Many of the state offices are in financial trouble. I'm not bi-vocational but I have been in the past and but I'm not sure how many pastor's will want to send that tithe to their state office. Should be an interesting discussion.

The report actually says (and is not under a specific recommendation either):

“Non-Ministry Tithes Pilot Program for National/Regional/State Offices: National/Regional/State Offices who are in a financial crisis with insolvency looming may seek authorization from the Administrative Committee and approval from their respective national/regional/state convention to participate in a pilot program that redirects the pastors’ non-ministry tithes away from the local church and toward the intermediate offices. This program is not mandatory for the pastors; rather, it appeals to the pastors to voluntarily follow the New Testament example of the Macedonians (who came to the financial aid of their Jerusalem brethren) by coming to the financial aid of their intermediate office (2 Corinthians 8:1–9:15). The pastors would voluntarily elect to send all of their tithes (from both ministry and non-ministry sources) to their respective National/Regional/State Offices. Any pastor who genuinely believes he/she cannot participate in this program because of financial hardship may simply inform his/her respective overseer that he/she is exercising his/her prerogative of self-exemption from this program and continue paying tithes as currently directed via the Tithing section (p. 72, of 95th Assembly Minutes) of the Present Financial System (i.e., ministry tithes to N/R/S Office and non-ministry tithes to local church).

bolded emphasis mine.

[free]

Volunteer in 2010...Mandatory in 2012!

[darylscook]

The report actually says (and is not under a specific recommendation either):

“Non-Ministry Tithes Pilot Program for National/Regional/State Offices: National/Regional/State Offices who are in a financial crisis with insolvency looming may seek authorization from the Administrative Committee and approval from their respective national/regional/state convention to participate in a pilot program that redirects the pastors’ non-ministry tithes away from the local church and toward the intermediate offices. This program is not mandatory for the pastors; rather, it appeals to the pastors to voluntarily follow the New Testament example of the Macedonians (who came to the financial aid of their Jerusalem brethren) by coming to the financial aid of their intermediate office (2 Corinthians 8:1–9:15). The pastors would voluntarily elect to send all of their tithes (from both ministry and non-ministry sources) to their respective National/Regional/State Offices. Any pastor who genuinely believes he/she cannot participate in this program because of financial hardship may simply inform his/her respective overseer that he/she is exercising his/her prerogative of self-exemption from this program and continue paying tithes as currently directed via the Tithing section (p. 72, of 95th Assembly Minutes) of the Present Financial System (i.e., ministry tithes to N/R/S Office and non-ministry tithes to local church).

bolded emphasis mine.

While most of our overseers are Awesome, some do miss the mark. And, while Overseers are ENCOURAGED to work with churches and local committees, they still have the authority to appoint pastors. And, many still appoint them as they feel led. Our last overseer had a local committee look at three prospects and then appointed the one with the least support from the committee. Having an overseer that can appoint you to "Ceder Creek" or some other 3 member still on the books church asking you to volunteer to send your tithes on secular income to the state office provides those few "bad apples" undue influence and Power. I just pause at really how voluntary this program will be in some areas. I think this program should be prohibited in areas that have implemented an additional state/region tithe equivalent program. We currently send a total of 4% to the State Office/State Campground funds.

One way to remove some of the "power" of these few would be strict limits (that are enforced) on the total compensation package an overseer can have in a region that would be implementing this program.

Lastly, I have a HUGE problem with the burden of addressing a shortfall of funds being placed on the backs of the weakest churches in a region. All of the additional funding will come on the backs of local churches that already cannot afford a full-time pastor. To me, that just seems fundamentally wrong!

Pastor Daryl

[Pastor Gary]

The report actually says (and is not under a specific recommendation either):

“Non-Ministry Tithes Pilot Program for National/Regional/State Offices: National/Regional/State Offices who are in a financial crisis with insolvency looming may seek authorization from the Administrative Committee and approval from their respective national/regional/state convention to participate in a pilot program that redirects the pastors’ non-ministry tithes away from the local church and toward the intermediate offices. This program is not mandatory for the pastors; rather, it appeals to the pastors to voluntarily follow the New Testament example of the Macedonians (who came to the financial aid of their Jerusalem brethren) by coming to the financial aid of their intermediate office (2 Corinthians 8:1–9:15). The pastors would voluntarily elect to send all of their tithes (from both ministry and non-ministry sources) to their respective National/Regional/State Offices. Any pastor who genuinely believes he/she cannot participate in this program because of financial hardship may simply inform his/her respective overseer that he/she is exercising his/her prerogative of self-exemption from this program and continue paying tithes as currently directed via the Tithing section (p. 72, of 95th Assembly Minutes) of the Present Financial System (i.e., ministry tithes to N/R/S Office and non-ministry tithes to local church).

bolded emphasis mine.

While most of our overseers are Awesome, some do miss the mark. And, while Overseers are ENCOURAGED to work with churches and local committees, they still have the authority to appoint pastors. And, many still appoint them as they feel led. Our last overseer had a local committee look at three prospects and then appointed the one with the least support from the committee. Having an overseer that can appoint you to "Ceder Creek" or some other 3 member still on the books church asking you to volunteer to send your tithes on secular income to the state office provides those few "bad apples" undue influence and Power. I just pause at really how voluntary this program will be in some areas. I think this program should be prohibited in areas that have implemented an additional state/region tithe equivalent program. We currently send a total of 4% to the State Office/State Campground funds.

One way to remove some of the "power" of these few would be strict limits (that are enforced) on the total compensation package an overseer can have in a region that would be implementing this program.

Lastly, I have a HUGE problem with the burden of addressing a shortfall of funds being placed on the backs of the weakest churches in a region. All of the additional funding will come on the backs of local churches that already cannot afford a full-time pastor. To me, that just seems fundamentally wrong!

Pastor Daryl

I have a problem with ALL mandatory, enforced systems of contribution. Tithing and giving of what belongs to God should be, IMHO, an act of love, not merely obligation.