Tattoos And Piercings

[lady4jc]

I have peirced ears and I dont think it sin to have them .. But I just cant stand to see peircings and tatao all over the body. I feel my body is a temple of God so I want God's temple not marked up. So for me to do this wouldnt be right. But this is just me .. my opinion ... what others do dont mean I should do it too. If I feel uncomfortable with peircings and tataos I just dont get them.

[Shellie]

lady4jc,

I like what you say that "for you" it would be wrong. That is of vital importance when it comes to any liberty in our christian walk.

Recently, I stood and watched my MIL tell my daughter that pierced tongues were sinful. The whole time she is telling her this, MIL's ears were displaying beautiful gold pierced earrings.

Ears or tongue...........a piercing is a piercing.

Do I advocate pierced tongues......NO. I think they slur your speech making you sound unintelligent, chip your teeth, and draw attention away from the person themselves. There is nothing more appealing to me to be drawn to the inside of their mouth while I'm trying to intently listen to what they are saying.

BUT, are they sinful? The fact remains, it looks absolutely ridiculous standing there with pierced ears telling another that a pierced tongue is sinful.

[Poimen]

Gerald asked:

Are you justified by the works of these laws or are you justified by faith in Jesus Christ?

I am justified (declared just) by faith in Jesus Christ. The righteousness that he imparted secured my pardon. The righteousness that he infused provides my newness of life in him. In living for him I walk in the light of his word to the best of my knowledge and ability and maintain a just standing before God because of it. If I were to return to darkness I would not retain a just standing before God. (see 1 John 1:7 & St. John 3:21-22)


Gerald said:

If you are justified by Jesus Christ, we then come down to the question which we have faced many times in the TCOG discussion: What good does it benefit you?

You do not really believe in the open-endedness of this statement, do you? Imagine what all could be substituted here.

The way you framed that question reminded me of Paul's' question to the Romans what does it profit is there of circumcision (since circumcision does not make one just nor uncircumcision make one unjust) ... he said they were profited "much every way". I like that answer.

[Pastor Gary]

Do I advocate pierced tongues......NO. I think they slur your speech making you sound unintelligent, chip your teeth, and draw attention away from the person themselves.

This might belong on Victorious Secret, but my primary reason for opposing pierced tongues on unmarried young females is that they are closely associated in youth culture with being an enhancement to certain sexual practices I won't describe here, and, consequently, a nice young girl with a pierced tongue might be advertising her willingness to perform an act she has no intention of performing!

(And I had a Senior Girls Camp Counselor last year who had a pierced tongue. She is married. )

[Poimen]

lil Sis said:

This is just unbelievable to me... I can't comprehend people spending energy worrying about these things.

I can appreciate that you don't comprehend it. From your perspective this should be treated as a "meats & drinks" issue. Let each be fully persuaded in their own mind.

I abstain from wearing a watch generally so as to overcome any "hypocritical claims" filed against me. When people asked me what I believed about jewelry some could not accept that a watch could be worn without it being jewelry... this from people who wore jewelry,etc. So, I removed it in order not to be a stumbling block to them. I am not around them anymore... but once you get used to not wearing one, you feel funny with one on.

I don't spend my time worrying about such things. In fact I don't have such things to worry over.


lil Sis said:

This struck me as funny. When you reorganized, you reworded... that sums it all up. God isn't the one who's confused over jewelry, neckties, lapel pins... it's just you guys! Keep reorganizing and rewording teachings to "suit" yourself. God's teachings remain the same.

I think you are missing something in this area. I don't quite know how to explain it or what it is all together. But as a matter of clarification... we reworded the teaching (not literally changing it) to make it easier to understand what is actually expressed by it. The kind of changing of teachings you are talking about is part of the reason why we reorganized. We did not change the teaching on adornment. We still stand according to what we believe is God's teaching on the subject. We simply tried to rephrase the wording in the tract to be more precise.


lil Sis said:

You don't KNOW yet?? You haven't FELT yet?? You're "considering"? Uh-oh!!! Yet ANOTHER change in the teachings coming soon???

Please see above reply. It covers this as well. Normally I do not reply to the kind of comments made in that last quote. I want argue the whole CHANGE in teachings bit with you, or the changed markers at FOW, etc. In mentioning them I have said enough... and desire to remain polite in my dialog. I do hope that the spirit of what I was trying to say, and the meekness I desired to portray in replying to Shellie is easily recognized in these comments. I don't think we see or understand everything... and if that includes realizing some other things are adornment in the eyes of God and must be discarded I am willing to comply. That is what I was trying to say.

[Shellie]

Poiman wrote:

I do hope that the spirit of what I was trying to say, and the meekness I desired to portray in replying to Shellie is easily recognized in these comments.

They were and I applaud and admire your graciousness and presentation.

I don't think we see or understand everything... and if that includes realizing some other things are adornment in the eyes of God and must be discarded I am willing to comply. That is what I was trying to say.

That, we agree on. I am not against being against adornment. I only balk at making it unlawful or sinful. I feel that it should be an individuals relationship with God and not a test for membership. I still teach my girls to be careful and modest with adornment while I wear a wedding ring, a mother's ring and a small pair of earrings.

That is what I was trying to say.

You did a fine job of it. While we do not agree at all on adornment, I appreciate your willingness to state your beliefs under fire all while keeping a gentleman's demeanor.
[/quote]

[Gerald Creasy]

I am justified (declared just) by faith in Jesus Christ. The righteousness that he imparted secured my pardon. The righteousness that he infused provides my newness of life in him. In living for him I walk in the light of his word to the best of my knowledge and ability and maintain a just standing before God because of it. If I were to return to darkness I would not retain a just standing before God. (see 1 John 1:7 & St. John 3:21-22)

So am I correct in saying that you believe that the righteousness of Christ secured your pardon and made it possible for you to live by a law to become righteous yourself?

Gerald said:
Quote:
If you are justified by Jesus Christ, we then come down to the question which we have faced many times in the TCOG discussion: What good does it benefit you?


You do not really believe in the open-endedness of this statement, do you? Imagine what all could be substituted here.

Then I shall cut to the chase and rephrase the question:

Let us say that Poimen and Gerald Creasy live lives that are exemplary. When people think “Good Christian” Poimen and Gerald spring to mind. In fact the only difference is that Poimen wears no gold and Gerald is awfully fond on his gold 60s era Rat Fink he wears on a chain.
Through an odd coincidence, at the exact moment Gerald chokes to death on a taquito, Poimen bites the big one in a bizarre Pin The Tail On the Donkey Accident.

There they stand. Poimen and Gerald. Before the great judge of men.

Whither goes Poimen? And to what destination shall Gerald Be sent?

[Seeking]

Well to each their own but I feel that common sense needs to be used. Where I work I deal with the public ( Retail) and I have seen rediculous extremes and also those done tastefully. I had a customer one night who had MULTIPLE ( am I spelling that right?) pierecings and tatoos on various parts of his body and face included with large ear pirecings including a tongue stud. He looked like something out of the National Geographic. ( this is not meant to be racist)

[ErinNicole]

Do I advocate pierced tongues......NO. I think they slur your speech making you sound unintelligent, chip your teeth, and draw attention away from the person themselves.

This might belong on Victorious Secret, but my primary reason for opposing pierced tongues on unmarried young females is that they are closely associated in youth culture with being an enhancement to certain sexual practices I won't describe here, and, consequently, a nice young girl with a pierced tongue might be advertising her willingness to perform an act she has no intention of performing!

There's no might about it. If you're a girl with a pierced tongue, then it will automatically be assumed by everyone around you that you will perform those sexual acts. Some might consider that judgemental, but supposedly, it's the number one reason girls pierce their tongues.

I have my navel pierced, and I see nothing wrong with it. I don't dress suggestively so everyone in the world can see it. I don't show it off. I'm not more focused on my belly button ring than I am on God. I did it because I wanted to. I told my parents when I did it, and they were somewhat disappointed in it. If I remember correctly, my father told me the Holy Spirit was just gonna leak out the hole. I think, however, that they finally reached the conclusion that if the worst thing I ever did was pierce my navel then it wasn't really much to be upset about. Plus, it's not permanent. It's become just as commonplace on girls as pierced ears.

I have plenty of friends who are pierced and tattoed. Most of the tattoos are Christian in nature. My one friend claims he's had more chances to witness to people because of his tattoos. I say more power to him. He'll reach people that most of us wouldn't even be able to say one word to.

I am by no means advocating vulgarity/obscenity. And some of the things people get pierced! I view it as a sign of where our world is headed.

-Erin

[Phil Hoover]

I feel my body is a temple of God .

I remember hearing Pastor Erwin Lutzer saying (a few years ago) that,

"the Scriptures tell us that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit...some of our temples look more like garages..."

That would be me! LOL

Phil Hoover
Chicago

P S--funny the things you remember in a sermon, huh?

[lady4jc]

[quote]"the Scriptures tell us that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.. [quote]


Yes that is what I mean when I said temple of God.

[Poimen]

Gerald,

I'll try to get back with you... but I'm not up to the deep discussion right now. We got word today we will be pulling some longer shifts the next couple of weeks. Between the silly posts, and the fairly quick replies, admin'n my own forums, and real life (and all that goes on in it)... I just don't feel up to the effort tonight. Maybe later this weekend.

Feel free to remind me should it pass by unnoticed. I really want to reply to you.

Just a tid-bit in the mean time.

You know that I believe in backsliding, and that "walking in the light" is conditional to that. I would not phrase my belief the way you did concerning keeping a law to be just. But I do believe that salvation can be lost. It is in that respect that I believe failure to keep what I know to be NT teaching would render me unjust before God and cause me to forsake discipleship with Christ.

Consider the "hard saying" of Christ when many of his disciples turned back and followed him no more. In the Scriptures I linked to previously John said that by walking in the Light we are cleansed from all sin. Based on that, the reverse would mean that to not walk in the light is to be guilty of sin (read unjust).


later Lord willing

[Poimen]

Gerald said:

Let us say that Poimen and Gerald Creasy live lives that are exemplary. When people think “Good Christian” Poimen and Gerald spring to mind. In fact the only difference is that Poimen wears no gold and Gerald is awfully fond on his gold 60s era Rat Fink he wears on a chain.
Through an odd coincidence, at the exact moment Gerald chokes to death on a taquito, Poimen bites the big one in a bizarre Pin The Tail On the Donkey Accident.

There they stand. Poimen and Gerald. Before the great judge of men.

Whither goes Poimen? And to what destination shall Gerald Be sent?

Again I find your position very open-ended. However... I believe that a born again believer goes to heaven. If Poimen and Gerald are both born again then they both receive eternal life. IF however they are not , then they both receive eternal damnation. Of course I do believe salvation can be lost. So being born again... implies continuing as a disciple, or as Jesus said "if ye continue in my word then are ye my disciples indeed".

At fist you asked me what difference does it make (speaking of jewelry). I would like to use your analogy above and pose some thoughts to you by adapting it...

EXAMPLE #1
Let us say that Poimen and Gerald Creasy live lives that are exemplary. When people think “Good Christian” Poimen and Gerald spring to mind. In fact the only difference is that Poimen believes the elements of the eucharist (Lord's Supper) become the actual flesh and blood of the Lord and Gerald believes them to be figurative of the sacrifice of Christ.
Through an odd coincidence, at the exact moment Gerald chokes to death on a taquito, Poimen bites the big one in a bizarre Pin The Tail On the Donkey Accident.

What difference does it make?



EXAMPLE #2
Let us say that Poimen and Gerald Creasy live lives that are exemplary. When people think “Good Christian” Poimen and Gerald spring to mind. In fact the only difference is that Poimen does not believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost, or the modern practice of the gifts of the Spirit and Gerald is baptized with the Holy GHost, speaks in tongues, and has had several of the gifts manifested in his own life and ministry on numerous occasions.
Through an odd coincidence, at the exact moment Gerald chokes to death on a taquito, Poimen bites the big one in a bizarre Pin The Tail On the Donkey Accident.

What difference does it make?


EXAMPLE #3
Let us say that Poimen and Gerald Creasy live lives that are exemplary. When people think “Good Christian” Poimen and Gerald spring to mind. In fact the only difference is that Poimen is called to preach and Gerald is awfully fond of preaching but is not called to be a minister.
Through an odd coincidence, at the exact moment Gerald chokes to death on a taquito, Poimen bites the big one in a bizarre Pin The Tail On the Donkey Accident.

What difference does it make?


EXAMPLE #4
Let us say that Poimen and Gerald Creasy live lives that are exemplary. When people think “Good Christian” Poimen and Gerald spring to mind. In fact the only difference is that Poimen believes that baptism is to be done (and at that by immersion) and Gerald is not sure any mode of baptism is more correct than another. In fact he really doesn't believe anyone has to be baptized at all.
Through an odd coincidence, at the exact moment Gerald chokes to death on a taquito, Poimen bites the big one in a bizarre Pin The Tail On the Donkey Accident.

What difference does it make?


EXAMPLE #5
Let us say that Poimen and Gerald Creasy live lives that are exemplary. When people think “Good Christian” Poimen and Gerald spring to mind. In fact the only difference is that Poimen believes in modalism (God is one person who reveals Himself as Father, Son, & Holy Ghost, aka Oneness) and Gerald believes that God-head is triune.
Through an odd coincidence, at the exact moment Gerald chokes to death on a taquito, Poimen bites the big one in a bizarre Pin The Tail On the Donkey Accident.


What difference does it make?


more later...
I 'll await your reply.

[Gerald Creasy]

Poimen,

I do not wish to expand this subject by "muddying the waters" with other issues and topics. The answers to your other examples are irrelevant.

I asked you very specificly, by using me and you as an example. If we are both born again and the only difference in us spiritually is that I wear a gold ornament (Something which I do not do due to extreme skin sensitivity), If we both die what difference will it make in heaven, or will the gold wearer be banned from heaven and consigned to hell?


This is YOUR doctrine; do not be ashamed to make it as plain as possible.

[Poimen]

Gerald,

I was not, nor am I, muddying the waters. They are muddied enough already aren't they (see the examples listed)? And that was the point.

The fact is there are no doubt many such issues with varying ranges of importance scripturally among many who are genuinely born again believers on their way to heaven. The fact is they make a huge difference. And will continue to do so as we struggle to arrive at, propagate, and defend in unison THE FAITH (the whole body of doctrine) once and for all delivered to the saints.

In saying that, I readily admit there is much I myself do not understand or see. Thankfully we are accepted by our faith in him, and kept by our willingness to do what we know. As we walk in the light He makes up our lack. We are complete in Him. Thus, though I believe jewelry to be inappropriate for the Christian according to NT teaching, I also realize there are no doubt many true Christians who do not see that out there. I believe it to be wrong, but I accept that as they walk in the light of his word to the best of their knowledge and ability that they remain just before him, as do I, and we are both accepted in Him, and as such we would both go to heaven if we died with those differences.