Healing Poll

[Tracy]

But also, if and when we do get sick, whether it is discipline or not, if we cry out to God He will heal us.

If God heals every saint who ever cries out to Him, then how is the end of the age ever going to happen? For God has ordained that there is a number of Christians who must be killed--die from unhealed wounds--before He brings the final judgment.

Rev 6:9ff:

"When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

"And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also."

God wills NOT to heal these precious saints. He wills for them to die for the faith.

But you say that God doesn't will for Christians to be unhealed.

How is God going to usher in the end of the age based on your reckoning?

Do we just order all martyrs, from here on out...

"Do not pray for healing from any of the wounds from your persecutors! If you do, then God must heal. But if He heals you, you won't die. And if you don't die, then the number of martys won't be filled up. And if the number of martyrs isn't filled up, then the judgment won't come.

SO, make sure that all you martyrs do not pray to God for help!!!"

That is the only solution I can come up with, based on your declaration that every Christian who prays for healing, gets it.

And how come Stephen didn't get healed, Jennifer? And Peter on the cross? And John's head--it didn't get healed. Your theology doesn't seem to work in the New Testament. How do you account for such non-healings?

Blessings,
Tracy

[pastorables]

And Peter on the cross? And John's head--it didn't get healed. Your theology doesn't seem to work in the New Testament. How do you account for such non-healings?

Not Jennifer, but I do desire to give an answer because it mirrors our discussion about healing in the other thread.

Tracy, the Bible states that it is appointed unto man once to die. This is the written Word and cannot be challenged. Yet, the Bible also states multiple times that God's plan for the body of Christ is to heal the sick. The Great Commission, Mark 16:18, even bears witness of God's will to heal. Now, we know that the Word doesn't contradict itself.

It's absolutely an unfair platform to fight against God's will to heal the sick with death. Healing the sick is not just about avoiding death or martyrdom... it's about allowing God's kingdom power to flow through us that the world may believe His truth.

God bless,
pastorables

[Pastor Gary]

...the Bible also states multiple times that God's plan for the body of Christ is to heal the sick. The Great Commission, Mark 16:18, even bears witness of God's will to heal.

I don't think there is a single person here who denies that God heals. I have been healed. I have prayed for people who were healed. I teach and preach healing.

I also teach the sovereignty of God and will not attempt to usurp his sovereignty by declaring that He MUST do anything. That is the debate here... not whether God can and does heal, but whether he can and does heal everybody 100% of the time, or whether He chooses to when and if He wants to.

Does every person you lay hands on recover? If not, do you cop out and say it was their fault, or do you acknowledge that "not your will gut HIS will be done?"

[Gerald Creasy]

Does every person you lay hands on recover? If not, do you cop out and say it was their fault, or do you acknowledge that "not your will but HIS will be done?"

I would really like to hear the answer to this question.

Drawing the idea that God Heals ALL WHo ASK to its logical conclusion, no one would ever die because 1) GOD ALWAYS wants to heal.

The very fact that we die PROOVES God does not ALWAYS WANT TO heal.

[Mike Vande]

Tracy, the Bible states that it is appointed unto man once to die. This is the written Word and cannot be challenged.

Just out of curiousity's sake, and because of a previous discussion wsith a person who claimed that God's Will is ALWAYS To heal, when is man appointed to die? Is it only after "threescore and ten", or can that be happen before the age of 70 and still be God's Will?

Yet, the Bible also states multiple times that God's plan for the body of Christ is to heal the sick.[/quote}

Sure, but nowhere I can remember does scripture say it is ALWAYS God's will to heal the sick. People died of sickness in Jerusalem while Jesus was there. Being God, and thereby omniscient, omnipotent, and concerned with everybody as an individual, He not only knew about them, He could have healed them but didn't. If God's Will is always to heal, why not?

[qb]The Great Commission, Mark 16:18, even bears witness of God's will to heal. Now, we know that the Word doesn't contradict itself.

1 Chronicles 21:12-36 shows a situatuation where it wasn't God's Will to heal, but rather to kill, either by famine, the swords of and advancing enemy, or perstilence, and the only choice He gave was which way He woould kill a sizable number of people. And the people He killed didn't do anything to deserve it, not out of the ordinary, anyway. Now we know God doesn't change, age to age the same and all that, and yet here was an instance where it wasn't His Will to heal, He sent sickness and death. How does that figure in with your theology?

It's absolutely an unfair platform to fight against God's will to heal the sick with death.

Scripture please, and not just the usual stuff, please; show me a scripture that says, in context, that God is limited in His choices on how to deal with people who have surrendered their life and death to Him for His disposition.

[/quote]Healing the sick is not just about avoiding death or martyrdom... it's about allowing God's kingdom power to flow through us that the world may believe His truth.[/quote]

Well, that's a nice little theological box you have made for God to fit in, but we both know that God doesn't fit in any box. It would be wrong for you to kill or order the killing of people in any number, but God not only has done that, He was right to do so. God can do whatever He sees fit, and regardless of what He action he takes, it is the right action. If we have given our lives to God, which the majority of historic evangelical belief and practice says is how a person is saved, it is no longer up to a person to decide what is and isn't right for them, that is in God's hands. It is an insidious and disgusting heresy to assert that a person must take their life back out of God's Hands to get everything He wants them to have. God doesn't always want to heal sickness, he doesn't always make a material way out of adversity, and His children very often give their lives in following Him. That is how it works, at least according to scripture rightly divided.

Vande

[Sherry]

Does every person you lay hands on recover? If not, do you cop out and say it was their fault, or do you acknowledge that "not your will but HIS will be done?"

Personal story on this....

I was told that I wasn't healed completely from my complicated migraines because of my lack of faith. It was my fault. I wasn't strong enough. The person praying for me did everything right, the failure of my healing fell on me.

Now let me tell you....there is NO ONE who want's to be healed from these horrible things more than me. When they hit, I can count on being extremely ill for up to 5-7 days. I look like I have had a stroke. I can't function as a person at all. It's literally hell. So when I pray for healing I pray earnestly with faith and belief that my God will heal me. What He decides is up to him.

I do know this, I may not be completely healed from them but I don't have near as many as I once did. The intensisty of them isn't as bad and they don't last as long. So to the person who claimed I wasn't healed, I beg to differ....because with the way things are going, well, to me that's healing.

[mary]

I'm also thinking of the verse,
1 Corinthians 11:28-29 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.1Co 11:30
For this cause many are weak and sickly among
you, and many sleep. So yes, the Lord does allow sickness at times, and sometimes there might be a spirit of infirmity involved.

I believe this scripture was referring to the Jews who had started eating the Lord's supper for other purposes besides "remembering Him" like He asked for them to do. So because they weren't doing that, they began to have sickness and infirmities.

Also, I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this, but for the saint of God, wouldn't death actually be the ultimate healing? I mean - you do end up in heaven after all.

[Revival Theology]

Hi pastorables,

The following are statements that I can agree with:

C. God provides healing through Christ's shed blood

D. God desires to heal all sickness (there's a crucially important difference between desire and will).

G. It's not God's will to heal every one (to which I would add--"in the way they may want it").

J. God is sovereign. He can and does heal, but is not obligated to.

K. God can and does use sickness, poverty, and adversity to mold the character of His saints if He sees fit.

[Revival Theology]

...the Bible also states multiple times that God's plan for the body of Christ is to heal the sick. The Great Commission, Mark 16:18, even bears witness of God's will to heal.

Does every person you lay hands on recover? If not, do you cop out and say it was their fault, or do you acknowledge that "not your will gut HIS will be done?"

While I would certainly agree in principle with this, PG, isn't it funny how easily we submit to personal experience to define doctrine in this case? ("So, does everybody YOU pray for get healed?") As if there were no other possible explanations as to why many are not healed through our prayers than, "Well, I guess it must not've been God's will."

All too often, I think this answer itself becomes a pat answer and a cop-out. It's surely the answer that is easiest on us. Anyone could simply go through the motions of praying for someone else, with just a feigned faith, and then when healing doesn't happen, just say, "Well, I guess it must not've been God's will." I mean, anybody can say that.

Perhaps it's better to not comment either way on whether it's God's will or not? I honestly don't know, but I definitely grow hesitant to use the "God's will" diversion the more I see people suffering. Who am I to say that God's not willing to heal this or that person?

[MacUser]

Jesus saved me. He is my connection to the Kingdom. I don't remember Him ever turning anybody down that asked and believed while he walked this world.

Escaping ultimate death is not an option and is a different discussion. Jesus had to experience it. Are we better?


God Bless

[pastorables]

I also teach the sovereignty of God and will not attempt to usurp his sovereignty by declaring that He MUST do anything. That is the debate here... not whether God can and does heal, but whether he can and does heal everybody 100% of the time, or whether He chooses to when and if He wants to.

Pastor Gary,

I am not arguing the sovereignty of God and have never said that he must do anything. I have only quoted scripture. That is all that I have to put my faith in is his Word. For clarity, I would like to post this again from response to Tracy:

Oh really?! Then why does he spend 3+ years teaching the disciples through the example of healing (even put a man's ear back on), gives them specific orders to heal the sick, empowers the early church to heal the sick, if he doesn't will this to be?!

Does every person you lay hands on recover?

Unfortunately, NO. I must admit that I am not walking yet in the realm of "Great Commission" ministry, but I intend to get there with God's grace.

pastorables

[Pastor Gary]

Does every person you lay hands on recover?

Unfortunately, NO. I must admit that I am not walking yet in the realm of "Great Commission" ministry, but I intend to get there with God's grace.

pastorables

Thank you for an honest answer. Me neither. I pray for people sometimes full of faith and fervency, agreeing with their faith, only to see nothing happen.

What do conclude from this?
• I didn't pray right or have enough faith?
• THEY didn't have enough faith?
• God, in His sovereignty, did not choose to heal them, at least not right now.

Let's just personalize this, Brother Ables. Kenya's father, Pastor Silvers, has cancer. He has prayed fervently with faith believing for his healing, as have others... Kenya, her mother, dozens of pastors and evangelists, all who believe in the power of God to heal and want desperately to see Brother Silvers healed. Can you explain to me how that can be if you hold that God ALWAYS desires to heal, and never refused to heal anyone who asked, and that you believe the church is commissioned to do even more miraculous healing than Jesus did... yet Brother Silvers continues to be more and more ravaged by cancer.

Why?

[pastorables]

Why?

Pastor Gary,

I am no stranger to sickness, neither is my wife who has an incurable bladder condition. I have watched her cry herself to sleep too many times to recall. Myself, I have been healed of a critical growth on my body yet I also underwent surgery for gall stones. Why? Why? Why?

I know this question all too well, Pastor Gary. Nevertheless, I cannot reduce God's Word to just good advice due to my lack of understanding in these areas. His ways are higher than my ways and past finding out.

All I can say is that I have never doubted God's directives to the church. They are clear to me in regards to his desire for gifts and miracles to flourish in his body. No, I am not WOF or "over the edge", I believe exactly the same thing that Smith Wigglesworth, A. J. Tomlinson, and other Pentecostal fathers believed---the Word of God concerning healing. Pastor Gary, I just can't let the "we are all dying" excuse trump the fact that Christ, or his disciples, never refused to heal anyone who reached out for it. Why is healing not working today when Jesus commanded his church to heal the sick?! I can only say, with honesty, that the church is lacking the power of the early church. This is my honest conclusion.

Could I be wrong? Sure. Nevertheless, I haven't been convinced of it yet.

Sincerely,
pastorables

[Mike Vande]

...I cannot reduce God's Word to just good advice due to my lack of understanding in these areas. His ways are higher than my ways and past finding out.

Yet your lack of understanding in these areas doesn't preclude you from taking a stance in the opposite extreme. That is either disingenuous or cognitively dissonant. YOU decide which.

All I can say is that I have never doubted God's directives to the church. They are clear to me in regards to his desire for gifts and miracles to flourish in his body.

At the inspiration of His Holy Spirit, yes, at our command and disposal, no. And if God doesn't know better at all times than you or me, even (especially?) in situations regarding miracles, we are all in big trouble.

No, I am not WOF or "over the edge", I believe exactly the same thing that Smith Wigglesworth, A. J. Tomlinson, and other Pentecostal fathers believed---the Word of God concerning healing.

I have yet to hear anyone reference Smith Wigglesworth who WASN'T over the edge into the WoF, whatever they called their doctrine. And AJ Tomlinson believed he was called to pastor and pastoring the only true Bride Of Christ. If he was wrong about that, and he was, what else was he wrong about? A lot of those "pentecostal fathers" were WAAAAAYYYY screwed up in their doctrine on a lot of issues, and some of the biggest proponents of healing were the worst charlatans of the lot.

Pastor Gary, I just can't let the "we are all dying" excuse trump the fact that Christ, or his disciples, never refused to heal anyone who reached out for it.

Firstly, we ARE all dying, that is not an excuse but rather an empirical truth. Secondly, YOU don't have a firmly based scriptural reason to believe Jesus and the disciples healed everyone who wanted them to, especially because not everything Jesus did is recorded in scripture. But even in the scriptural accounts, Jesus avoided crowds that were undoubtedly full of people who wanted Him to heal them. Thus, that is an unfounded argument.

Why is healing not working today when Jesus commanded his church to heal the sick?!

Who says it isn't working today? People get healed all the time, and I suspect in the same sort of percentages that they did when Jesus and the original disciples walked the earth. I'd even be willing to bet that one or two people have been healed under Benny Hinn's ministry, and he's an out-and-out fraud and false prophet. No, healing happens today, but there is no scriptural reason to believe that it happens less than God intends for it to; much the opposite is true.

I can only say, with honesty, that the church is lacking the power of the early church. This is my honest conclusion.

Yeah, we get that. And your explanation for why the modern church lacks the power of the early church is....?

Could I be wrong? Sure. Nevertheless, I haven't been convinced of it yet.

And I doubt you ever will be.

[pastorables]

At the inspiration of His Holy Spirit, yes, at our command and disposal, no.

Mike, I agree with you that we can't command the work of God's Spirit, yet, I disagree concerning disposal. Let's allow the Word to speak here:

Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Luke 9:1-2 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Matthew 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Mark 16:18 ...they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

Okay. It's extremely evident that God gives the power. I have not and will not dispute that fact.

So... let's look at disposal. Let's look again at Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.

Mike, Notice how the bold of Acts 3:6 bears record with the bold of Matthew 10:8. I do not have any agenda above believing the Word for what it says.
But, hey, what does that matter to you? Several here just want to label me WOF and be finished. I suppose that's easier than dealing with our failure to keep to the heart of the Great Commission.

Firstly, we ARE all dying, that is not an excuse but rather an empirical truth.

Right. An empirical truth being framed as an excuse against believing the Biblical truth about God's desire to heal and use his church to heal?!

Secondly, YOU don't have a firmly based scriptural reason to believe Jesus and the disciples healed everyone who wanted them to, especially because not everything Jesus did is recorded in scripture.

Mike, you're right. The entire New Testament is built upon a foundation that Christ came to heal, taught his disciples regarding this, and empowered the early church to practice it.... I guess I stand upon this same weak foundation.

As for the works of Jesus being recorded? You are right again.

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Jesus actually performed many more healings than the thousands recorded.

But even in the scriptural accounts, Jesus avoided crowds that were undoubtedly full of people who wanted Him to heal them. Thus, that is an unfounded argument.

Mike, your conjecture will never stand against what is actually written in the Word and I believe you know that.

No, healing happens today, but there is no scriptural reason to believe that it happens less than God intends for it to; much the opposite is true.

Believe it your way, Mike, but this contradicts the Word, not me.

Yeah, we get that. And your explanation for why the modern church lacks the power of the early church is....?

Two scriptures for a start:

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Revelation 3:16 - 17 "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. " 17 "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: "

Sincerely,
pastorables