tithing

[Pastor Bill]

OK, I was frustrated and I didn't word that the best, but how much of Christ's income did He give?

How well do you measure against that?

How well do you measure against Christ's perfection?

We are perfect IN CHRIST, but not in our own actions, and as we strive to follow Christ and conform to His Will, the standards of His Word (including the Law) can provide guidance. That is all I am saying.

[dolfan]

I'm starting to feel like the guy with one shoe nailed to the floor.

[lance82]

Poimen,

Amen brother!!

So why is it when I have said that same thing you disagree?

Tithing is giving cheerfully, (or it should be) it is simply a standard we can use to teach that, and to hold ourselves accountable in doing that.

I've said over and over... do what you are led to do. Don't place your yoke on others though. Encouraging others to do something is different than raising something up as a standard and measuring their growth/maturity by it is something different entirely!!

[lance82]

In fact I used to live just as you are promoting, I gave as God led, any time God led, but I realized one day that I was giving very little, because I wasn't giving God the opportunity to lead, I realized that (contrary to what I had thought) I was giving no where near a tithe, but a pittance out of much that God had given me. I wasn't living extravagantly, or wasteful, but I wasn't honoring God either.

What I am reading from you here Pastor Bill is that the Lord was leading you to give enough so you decided to start "tithing" in the spirit of the Jews in order to feel better.

Is it possible that you weren't listening to the prompting of the Lord and if you had been you would have been giving much more OR maybe you gave all that HE required but you condemned yourself.

I was struggling in my finances, over my head in debt, and had all the excuses, feeling I was giving all I could, but not really seeking God in it either. When an opportunity to give would come up, I would pray and give what I had to give, but since I never had much, I never gave much, but felt I was doing good to do that. Till God convicted me on it, and led me to take a harder look at what I was doing. I realized that I was not putting God first, and had allowed greed to creep in, I was still following God in other areas of my life, and I was trying to live for God, but I was failing in this area and was pushing the leading away with justifications that I didn't have any more I could give.

Putting that Standard in front of me, God taught me to put Him first, and to seek Him first, then I was able to hear His leading more in my finances, and I can say today I am debt free (paid the last payment on my truck yesterday), Was God cursing my finances before, no, but my unfaithfulness was preventing me from giving God the control to bless me. When I began to put God first, HE was able to to lead me in ways that I had not seen before.

I will AMEN you on this one... as it pertains to you. God taught you in the way He needed to to teach you. Allow Him to do the same with others! Don't place your "life changing experience" on the shoulders. It was not a matter of tithing or not tithing that was holding you back. It was selfishness being manifested in the form of greed.

God has a plan and path to reach each of us.

[Pastor Bill]

Poimen,

Amen brother!!

So why is it when I have said that same thing you disagree?

Tithing is giving cheerfully, (or it should be) it is simply a standard we can use to teach that, and to hold ourselves accountable in doing that.

I've said over and over... do what you are led to do. Don't place your yoke on others though. Encouraging others to do something is different than raising something up as a standard and measuring their growth/maturity by it is something different entirely!!

Unless of course you are a minister and you are led to teach/preach something.

Again a yolk/burden and a standard are two very different things.

[Pastor Bill]

God has a plan and path to reach each of us.

So let's take this concept a little further.

Are you saying that God's plan is different for each person (yes I will agree, to a point)

Are you saying that the standards of right and wrong are different for each person (OK, here is where we get on shaky ground)

If everyone has their own path, with different standards to be applied to their lives, aren't we getting into the concept relative morality? (here I would say we are completely beyond the point of lining up with scripture, and into modern humanism)

This is the progression you must be careful of, and I have seen it over and over. The standards God gives us in His Word aren't a matter of personal direction, but are basic standards that we can all use to judge right from wrong. Without these things, we edge toward relative morality, a very socially accepted concept that does not line up with scripture, but is very popular right now and does try to creep into the church.

We are not under the law, but the law does still delineate right from wrong, and can be used as a standard of morality in our lives, not to replace or compete with the leading of the Spirit, but the two (coming from the same source) will agree together.

If one comes to you and says that they are racist, would you agree with them or feel that was right? No, because regardless of how they feel they are led of the spirit in their attitude or actions regarding those issues, it doesn't line up with scripture. If they said they believed it was God's will in their lives for them to live in adultery, and that was how the Spirit was leading them? no, because it doesn't line up with the Word of God. This isn't legalistic, but it is only recognizing that His Spirit will line up with His word, and there are standards He has set in our lives, and His Spirit will lead us to them, not against them. This is not a burden of the law, but it is a harmony of His Word and Spirit.

[oletimer]

Pastor Bill, just wanted to let you know that I think that you are doing a good job of posting. Good sound thoughts and if one would really read what you are aying then may they could get a "revelation".

There is a difference from between destory and fulfill and Jesus said that he didn't come to destory but to fulfill it, (the Law).

I like how that Paul put it;

Ro 7:7
¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Oh well

[dawgs10]

And we made ordinances to bring the firstfruits of our ground and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, to the house of the Lord; to bring the firstborn of our sons and our cattle, as it is written in the Law, and the firstborn of our herds and our flocks, to the house of our God, to the priests who minister in the house of our God; to bring the firstfruits of our dough, our offerings, the fruit from all kinds of trees, the new wine and oil, to the priests, to the storerooms of the house of our God; and to bring the tithes of our land to the Levites, for the Levites should receive the tithes in all our farming communities. And the priest, the descendant of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes; and the Levites shall bring up a tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the rooms of the storehouse.

if you truly believe that Jesus came to fullfill the law and not to abolish what God wanted to be kept from it then this is a tithe. anything else is an offering. its just not the first 10% its where the first 10% goes. i am free by the grace of God to follow the word of God and keep that which was not abolished. and i know some will ask well did you give your first born and the answer would be no. i gave both of my children to the Lord and asked the Lord to use them how he sees fit in their lives. i dedicated both of them to the Lord.

[lance82]

God has a plan and path to reach each of us.

So let's take this concept a little further.

Are you saying that God's plan is different for each person (yes I will agree, to a point)

Are you saying that the standards of right and wrong are different for each person (OK, here is where we get on shaky ground)

If everyone has their own path, with different standards to be applied to their lives, aren't we getting into the concept relative morality? (here I would say we are completely beyond the point of lining up with scripture, and into modern humanism)

This is the progression you must be careful of, and I have seen it over and over. The standards God gives us in His Word aren't a matter of personal direction, but are basic standards that we can all use to judge right from wrong. Without these things, we edge toward relative morality, a very socially accepted concept that does not line up with scripture, but is very popular right now and does try to creep into the church.

We are not under the law, but the law does still delineate right from wrong, and can be used as a standard of morality in our lives, not to replace or compete with the leading of the Spirit, but the two (coming from the same source) will agree together.

If one comes to you and says that they are racist, would you agree with them or feel that was right? No, because regardless of how they feel they are led of the spirit in their attitude or actions regarding those issues, it doesn't line up with scripture. If they said they believed it was God's will in their lives for them to live in adultery, and that was how the Spirit was leading them? no, because it doesn't line up with the Word of God. This isn't legalistic, but it is only recognizing that His Spirit will line up with His word, and there are standards He has set in our lives, and His Spirit will lead us to them, not against them. This is not a burden of the law, but it is a harmony of His Word and Spirit.

Please note that I said, "God has a plan and path to reach each of us". Meaning that he has a way to deal with each person's heart specifically because he knows us all intimately. When we are teaching laws and standards that God did not put in place for the NT church, we do damage. I definitely will listen to Holy Spirit's convicting voice, as you say you did; rather than to a pastor who has a budget to meet. If the pastor presents a need, surely I will hear from God about what I need to do to meet it. Regarding the precepts and heart of God, they are contained in the 10 commandments and in Christ's commands to love God above all and neighbor as self. Since this thread is specifically about tithes, our love for him and/or neighbor isn't measured on what % we give. It's measured on how selfish vs. selfless we are. Regarding what I would tell people living in sin; I would tell them what the NT has to say. I wouldn't stone them or send them to make sacrifices. Racism isn't an act of love anymore than adultry.

Am I saying that the standards of right and wrong are different for each person? Yes, like you, to a point. This is why we were freed by Christ from the laws to be led by His Spirit. Do you not see what Paul had to say to the Galations? 4: 8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

If someone is truly seeking Him, they will hear his voice regarding the matters you allude to. That is why we need to focus on discipling people to love and seek HIM out. Not teaching them standards and laws that are not meant for them based on the New Covenant we have with God through the blood, death, and resurrection of Christ.

His Spirit will indeed line up with His Word. That is why people need to listen for Him, even in matters that they are certain they are correct about already.

[lance82]

Is there really no one who wants to discuss these?

What were the tithing requirements in the OT?
To whom were they required? What did Abraham tithe?
What did Jacob tithe?
When did tithing start as a post resurrection teaching?

[dawgs10]

Is there really no one who wants to discuss these?

What were the tithing requirements in the OT?
To whom were they required? What did Abraham tithe?
What did Jacob tithe?
When did tithing start as a post resurrection teaching?

why should we discuss OT. i thought you have been saying we are under Grace so we should not have to tithe.
and the tithing started as an NT teaching when Jesus said it was good. there is the answer.

[Pastor Bill]

And we made ordinances to bring the firstfruits of our ground and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, to the house of the Lord; to bring the firstborn of our sons and our cattle, as it is written in the Law, and the firstborn of our herds and our flocks, to the house of our God, to the priests who minister in the house of our God; to bring the firstfruits of our dough, our offerings, the fruit from all kinds of trees, the new wine and oil, to the priests, to the storerooms of the house of our God; and to bring the tithes of our land to the Levites, for the Levites should receive the tithes in all our farming communities. And the priest, the descendant of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes; and the Levites shall bring up a tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the rooms of the storehouse.

if you truly believe that Jesus came to fullfill the law and not to abolish what God wanted to be kept from it then this is a tithe. anything else is an offering. its just not the first 10% its where the first 10% goes. i am free by the grace of God to follow the word of God and keep that which was not abolished. and i know some will ask well did you give your first born and the answer would be no. i gave both of my children to the Lord and asked the Lord to use them how he sees fit in their lives. i dedicated both of them to the Lord.

Yes, Your tithes go to your local church, to the "house of God" if you will. I have seen that as well, those that spend their tithes on other things. I know one may who used his tithes to fund his Gospel Music group he was starting, he bought music equipment, paid for gas, paid his friends to come sing with him, and considered that paying his tithes, but that's not the intent.

[Pastor Bill]

Lance, I feel for you, because I get the impression you either have never had a good pastor, or you haven't ever received him or his leadership in your life in order to bless you.

You point to pastors teaching the tithes in order to meet the budget? I know more pastors that pull from their own pockets to meet the budget the harp on tithing the way you are describing here. I believe this is a deeper issue than money, God doesn't need your money (and I have made that statement I believe every time I have spoken on tithes in a local church) but YOU need to be faithful and give God that control. Yes there are some that push away from the tithe, teaching against it because they want to preach seed offerings and tell you to send them $1000 so God can bless you with 10 fold that and you'll be rich. The standard of tithing gives us a measuring stick BY GOD'S WORD that we can hold to, greedy "ministers" may push young Christians beyond what the Spirit leads and lay guilt trips. I've seen more greed in that than I have in those teaching a simple standard given BY GOD to help you plan your finances in a way to include faithful giving.

[lance82]

And we made ordinances to bring the firstfruits of our ground and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, to the house of the Lord; to bring the firstborn of our sons and our cattle, as it is written in the Law, and the firstborn of our herds and our flocks, to the house of our God, to the priests who minister in the house of our God; to bring the firstfruits of our dough, our offerings, the fruit from all kinds of trees, the new wine and oil, to the priests, to the storerooms of the house of our God; and to bring the tithes of our land to the Levites, for the Levites should receive the tithes in all our farming communities. And the priest, the descendant of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes; and the Levites shall bring up a tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the rooms of the storehouse.

if you truly believe that Jesus came to fullfill the law and not to abolish what God wanted to be kept from it then this is a tithe. anything else is an offering. its just not the first 10% its where the first 10% goes. i am free by the grace of God to follow the word of God and keep that which was not abolished. and i know some will ask well did you give your first born and the answer would be no. i gave both of my children to the Lord and asked the Lord to use them how he sees fit in their lives. i dedicated both of them to the Lord.

These are quotes from John MacArthur...
"Two kinds of giving are taught consistently throughout Scripture: giving to the government (always compulsory), and giving to God (always voluntary).
Tithes were not primarily gifts to God, but taxes for funding the national budget in Israel. Because Israel was a theocracy, the Levitical priests acted as the civil government. So the Levite's tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33) was a precursor to today's income tax, as was a second annual tithe required by God to fund a national festival (Deuteronomy 14:22-29). Smaller taxes were also imposed on the people by the law (Leviticus 19:9-10; Exodus 23:10-11). So the total giving required of the Israelites was not 10 percent, but well over 20 percent. All that money was used to operate the nation.
All giving apart from that required to run the government was purely voluntary (cf. Exodus 25:2; 1 Chronicles 29:9). Each person gave whatever was in his heart to give; no percentage or amount was specified.
New Testament believers are never commanded to tithe. Matthew 22:15-22 and Romans 13:1-7 tell us about the only required giving in the church age, which is the paying of taxes to the government. Interestingly enough, we in America presently pay between 20 and 30 percent of our income to the government—a figure very similar to the requirement under the theocracy of Israel.
The guideline for our giving to God and His work is found in 2 Corinthians 9:6-7 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly; and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver."

... nuf said!

[Full Quiver]

I've tried to discuss those things but it just exposes folks but that's what truth does.



Revelation is only founded in truth for it is truth revealed.
I'm not interested in a revelation of Judiasm. I am interested in true Christianity. We need to get it like little children get it and stop using our intellect to answer these questions. We as adults ALWAYS interject things that have nothing to do with what Jesus said. The law was a schoolmaster for the Jews to get to Christ. Sadly we Christians, whom started in grace & truth in the Spirit, were bewitched by "Christian legalism" and thus have had to use that as a schoolmaster to get back to Christ & true NT Christianity.

This stuff is simple and should remain so but the spirit of the world, the spirit of man, is to complicate things so that we can be on a pedestal for others to look up to. "Hey, hey, I have the truth, the standard, look to me and I will tell you how to live". We are to pint others to Christ: we are not the Holy Spirit and thus NOT the revealer of truth, not the exposer of sin, judgment, and righteousness.

Paul said I'll show you a more perfect way aka JESUS CHRIST. So many times we say I'll show you a more perfect way, tada, look at me.

Ministers, pastors, teachers are all one things and one thing ONLY. They are SERVANTS and only the humble ones that realize that are of any good to the church. I can pick out a handful of servants that I know and would willingly put them up against churches full of folks or even denominations and I believe they would be exponentially more effective for Christ. Of course the others would criticize and preach sermons on how they are doing it the right way while never accomplishing the task at hand. Feed the flock and witness to the world!