Uh Oh Pastors gone again.

[Pastor Gary]

I feel that the Pastor should take care of the Ministry of the Church and the Church take care of the Operations of the Church.

That sounds great, doesn't it? But it is not Biblical.

It is not Biblical to hire a "professional religionist" to do all the Jesus stuff so the members can be business managers. According to Ephesians 4:12, God placed the leadership of the church (5-fold or 4-fold ministries if you wish) for the expressed purpose "...to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up..."

It is God's people who are supposed to be doing works of service, and God's MINISTERS preparing, training, motivating and sending them forth to do that work.

[Joey]

TC,
I wonder if I'm just thinking of small churches (like 90% of COGOP) and you're thinking of larger churches where one pastor may not be able to handle all of the work....kind of like Charles Stanley in Atlanta, GA who has multiple staff members to help with the 1000's of members.

[TC]

cards

[Pastor Gary]

...A good administrator finds those with experience in the areas you need and uses that as their service to the church. We have a CPA that goes to our church that takes care of issues for us. I am not saying this is any one specific, but some feel that because they are the PASTOR they are in charge and the TOP dog and it is all goes thru him.I think it is disingenuous for pastors to complain about how over worked they are refuse to let those who are available to help.....help. Some pastors only want help in the grunge work, unstopping the toilets, cleaning the church, mowing the grass...while they will not let the CPA volenteer his time to take care of the church books, the insurance agent Negotiate the ins qoutes for the Church... but if you want want a Video director/ camera op/ sound man/ drummer/usher/ Parking lot worker....Let me know...I cant count the number of times I heard someone say "well nobody ever asked me to help" Some people are not the type to just jump right in there, some are not that bold, some need to be asked.

It is increasingly obvious to me that we don't dwell in the same universe.

I can only speak for myself, but I recruit volunteers constantly. A person comes twice and they have a job! ha ha And I prefer to use people in their area of competency... a computer tech is in charge of (what else?) our office computer network and tech support; a Mechanical Engineer who works for an construction company? In charge of mainetnance and construction. A high-ranking Navy officer with logistics expertise (in charge of supplying all ships at Peral Harbor) is my Development Director; Pre-School teacher with a degree in early childhood development? My Childrens' Pastor; and so it goes.

As for the education and experience of COGOP pastors, I think you made a GROSS over-simplification: I know a bunch of COGOP ministers with advanced degrees! I also know many, like myself, who have extensive business and corporate experience they bring to the office --- I am actively involved in the business side of my church management and am qualified to do so.

Have you always lived in KY? Is this a regional experience?

[TC]

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[Mike Vande]

It is not Biblical to hire a "professional religionist" to do all the Jesus stuff so the members can be business managers. According to Ephesians 4:12, God placed the leadership of the church (5-fold or 4-fold ministries if you wish) for the expressed purpose "...to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up..."

It is God's people who are supposed to be doing works of service, and God's MINISTERS preparing, training, motivating and sending them forth to do that work.

Yes, but but the parameters of that work can and should include disbursing the church's funds in a manner that glorifies God. The first apostles appointed the first deacons (among whom Stephen was one) because they needed to be free of directing mundane day-to-day operations and overseeing the equal distribution of their benevolence ministry in order to give their full attention to the ministry of the Word. THAT is a scriptural basis for a separation of duties between practical/business matters and spiritual ones in order for the ministry to work efficiently. I know of churches that do operate that way, and they don't all wind up starving the pastor out if they don't agree with him, or usuping his authority in the spiritual area. I must say that I have heard of some who do abominate God that way, and others who would if they could get away with it. But the failure of some to live acording to the teachings of Jesus does not negate the validity of those who do and still divide the labor and oversight of church duties between practical and spiritual matters.

I can see how it would terrify a pastor not to at least have input on how the church's funds are spent, and a wise church board would be very desirous of having the pastor involved to some degree on those matters. But I see a valid scriptural basis for dividing labor along the lines I have spoken of, so that the pastor can equip the saints for the work of the ministry, which includes disbursing church funds.

Vande

[Pastor Bill]

I see where you are coming from TC, and yes those with the skills need to be the ones doing the work, but it is also a Pastor's responsibility to direct and lead the church in it's ministries, including prioritizing the way in which the church directs it's spending to an extent.

I don't believe a pastor should micromanage the church, but as Pastor Gary's example, put people to work where they are skilled to do so, but I don't see as clear of a line between ministry and buisness as you seem to.

The buisness of the church IS the ministry, and too many people forget that (not just pastors) I think a good pastor takes council from church members, and places good Godly people in positions to help run things, but ministry direction is primarily his responsibility. You gave the example of a budget choice between flowers and video production. I would probably have looked more to putting the budget into the video ministry than the flowers, but I don't know what he's doing with the flowers either. If this is set aside for hospital patients or funerals then this may be something that really touches hearts when they are hurting, and that may be more of an area where that pastor felt the church needed to be reaching out.

From the sounds of it though the problem is/was that you are feeling this pastor really didn't have ministry as his priority, and that is a big problem, but I don't think it is specific to pastors either. I have a good friend that who is a Methodist Pastor. They make a very big distinction between the financial side of the church and the ministry side of things, and the Pastor really has very little say in the financial side of things. He gets very frustrated because the church board doesn't seem to focus on ministry and doesn't put money into things to reach people much the same way as you are seeing with this pastor. I don't think it is a pastor problem, it is more of a human problem, and no matter who is handling things they need to be focused on ministry.

I think the reason so many pastors do want their hands in these things is that they feel responsible for the ministry direction of the church, and it can be hard to move in a new direction without the financial support. I am blessed in that I have a good church clerk who handles those things and works with me in these things, and I don't have to worry about them, but not all churches are blessed in this way. Not all churches are blessed in this way, but I will agree also that not all pastors are focusing on ministry either.

[Pastor Bill]

Pastor Bill..... I am not sure if I made this clear, but I am not opposed to a pastor taking off 4 or 5 times a year (the number depends of the circumstances) I personally think that a PASTOR should be required to take a vacation away from the church and home. I am not sure what you are saying "but seldom have I seen it justified" is that a good or bad thing?

I guess that's a good thing, I haven't seen too many pastors that are really that bad, but then I have had some really good pastors myself. 4 or 5 times a year even seems like alot to me, but my pastor that I look back to the most probably missed that much. Some problems came up in the church and he was really attacked over it. The only time he missed other than illness was he took a weekend off a couple times when his daughter was on leave from the Navy to spend a little time with her and go visit family while she was in. I guess I have just seen more good pastors accused than I have poor pastors.

I also think that there are some Pastors that are pastors to pay the bills but they really want to preach revivals.... SO they are always preaching here or there. IF your church keeps you busy don't commit to other things that take your time that you could use for your Personal time/Family Time or time to do what you are being paid to do.

With this I agree, Pastoring is not a job, but a calling, if you aren't called, if you aren't focused on the ministry of pastoring, then step out where you are called. This does not mean Pastors shouldn't get out and preach elsewhere once in awhile, but that the well being of their church should come first. A spiritually healthy church should be able to allow a pastor to do this once in awhile, but it should not be the focus of his ministry.

[quote]There is a pastor that worked with us, that happend to come by. I told him of this thread, He told me the best advice he got was from an Overseer that told him...... "remember that YOU are the only on being paid to be there on sunday morning" It is a little simplistic but it is true.[quote]

On that one I would disagree, I feel a Pastor's responsibility isn't attendance, it is leading the church. If he is doing this and the church is doing well, he could be away once in awhile, but it depends on where the church is and how things are going. Besides there are pastors that are there every week, but doing less for their church than someone who is gone sometimes. It's really more about meeting the needs of the ministry than anything else.

[Pastor Gary]

I can see how it would terrify a pastor not to at least have input on how the church's funds are spent, and a wise church board would be very desirous of having the pastor involved to some degree on those matters. But I see a valid scriptural basis for dividing labor along the lines I have spoken of, so that the pastor can equip the saints for the work of the ministry, which includes disbursing church funds.

Interesting thread.

My Treasurer and I were on a conference call with the church accountant last night (she is on Maui) and we were making sure we had all the paperwork in order for end of the year tax stuff. Our accountant has reminded us more than once that it doesn't matter who writes the checks, or to an extent who signs the checks, from a legal standpoint the courts and the IRS view the Pastor (Senior Pastor, Lead Pastor, whatever...) is the legal CEO of Whatever Church, and as such, that Pastor is on the hotseat for whatever transpires, right or wrong. His is the fiduciary responsibility for the church.

Woe be unto the Pastor who blindly says "Well, duh, I don't know much about that complicated business stuff, so I'll just leave that to you smart people while I preach." That can land a guy in federal prison!

I use every resource at my disposal (including professionals like accountants and --if necessary-- attorneys) but the buck stops at the big desk in the corner office, guys, and I ask a lot of questions about how we are doing.

Example: I have a personal thing about not wishing to know who gives what... just my quirk: I expect all leaders to tithe and give, and they sign a job description/"contract" agreeing to do so, but I don't check. I do get a report on my desk every Sunday just after church that tells me attendance, a list of absentees for follow-up, and the gross amount of our weekly bank deposit. I plug that data into a spreadsheet that helps me track trends.

Does attendance dip every November? Hmmmm... why?
Giving suddenly went up this month? Hmmmmm... why?
etc.

[TC]

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[Pastor Gary]

...that sounds like exactlly what I am talking about. Some pastors are worried about the big desk, in the corner office.

Ah, I see. The leader should have the small desk in the closet. Do you go back and read these posts? Do you have any idea how bitter and resentful you sound? I am sorry you seem to have had some bad experiences with some bad pastors, but please give the rest of us a break.

Boy this is rich ....having them sign a contract for a Job they do of their own free will on their own time..What you don't have them also sign an attendance policy?

I do.

And my folks are happy that -- for the first time in the history of this local church -- someone has actually given them a written job description with clear expectations spelled out instead of saying "You're in charge of Women's Ministries now. DO your best."

Here is the section that every leader in my church signs...
Ministry Expectations
• Spend time in personal prayer for God’s direction of the ministry.
• Be faithful in attendance and participation in the life of WWC.
• Be faithful in tithing and giving in support of the ministries of WWC.
• Serve with excellence for the Kingdom of God, the good of the ministry team and the advancement of the vision of Windward Worship Center.
• Actively recruit, train, involve and encourage others who have caught the vision of the house and who have skills, abilities, talents or gifts to share the work of the ministry and “train your way out of a job.”
• Review all aspects of your ministry on a monthly basis in order to provide proper direction and adequate resources for the ministry.
• Communicate to the Senior Pastor the progress, needs, concerns and status of your ministry area on a time appropriate basis.

You wouldn't sign it, but then again, I would never select anyone with your attitude for leadership.

You appear to want them to be held accountable (to their own words) but are they having you sign a job description /"contract" that spells out exactly what they you are to do as well as the payment for that work?

Yes. It is seven pages long and very detailed, thanks.

You see I don't feel like it was you intention ....but you sound like some other pastors, more worried about making sure people tithe and give. pastor that can't go a month with out preaching on tithes. More worried about the money coming into their pockets and making sure that they are getting 'What they have coming" than doing the job ...ALL aspects of the job.

Bitterness is unbecoming, brother.

Those are accusations, and we all know the source of that spirit.

I have preached on tithing exactly ZERO times... ever. There has been ONE sermon on stewardship at my church in 3 years, and the State Overseer preached it, and not at my request. YOU seem to be the one obsessed with money, not me. Frankly, I am an EMPLOYEE of my local church. I get a fixed salary. If one of my members wins the Publisher's Clearinghouse millions, I don't get a dime more. And that was MY idea, not the churches, because I was making a lot more under the old system... and had every reason to leave it that way, because my church is growing. But I knew that the only way for the church to prosper and perhaps add staff later would be for me to voluntarily cap my income.

You are barking up the wrong tree, buddy. I am not a hireling.

I have had experiences where when people visit that every time they walked thru the door the pastor spoke of paying tithes.

Then you need to 'vote with your feet' and find a balanced church focused upon souls and not sales.

Let me make a few statements and I will call this thread quits...

Oh, don't make your parting shots and bail, dude. You have a lousy attitude towards shepherds, and I can't/won't leave it unchallenged. I serve alongside some of the finest, most selfless and giving Pastors around, and I resent the broad brush with which you sling paint.

I am not anti pastor,...

Oh, yes you are! Your words and spirit betray you. Every paragraph is an idictment of those who serve as Pastors.

[/i] BUT the fact is HE is the one being paid to be there....

And that really seems to bother you much more than it should.

[seekin4him]

I cannot but reply as a 24 yr. vet of full time ministy and 3yr. sabatical from ministry, I am dissappointed in tc's miopic view of ministry ie: my perception is reality, first let me appoligize to my wife and 2 children for the times I imposed on there humanity,and imposed on their time even as children to labor for jesus and the church. My wife and children were not being paid to be there in countless hospital waiting rooms ,parking garages, and were not god's little janitors for the 9 local churches pastored. I am and was then grateful for my families support which I expected, and now cherish as memories which i hope sweeten there experience with jesus in there futures. well thats all for now and thank you lord for change and Ford Motor Co. and tc can you say
C.A.T.S. cats,cats,cats

[Brenda]

Gary

I ask a lot of questions about how we are doing.

Just a comment:
I like the way you run your church. Your, you might say, the captain of the ship.. and need to know when things are going good and when there not.
I think more pastors need to be involved in how the finances are or arn't.

[milton]

Interesting topic that I tried my best to pass up...But, why not offer my own perspective.

I agree that there are lazy pastors. In fact, I personally know some who do nothing but preach on Sunday and get a pay check. However, I know lazy school teachers, construction workers, bankers, etc... It's true that you may be able to keep your "job" longer if you a pastor and operate this way but still, lazy people can be found in any profession.

I have been in the ministry for 20 years, my wife 22 years...We've done state work, youth work, traveled all over the country and finally settled into pastoral work (currently on year 16, only 2 churches). I have had times of plenty and times of famine. I left a financially strong church 9 years ago to come to my current church...I never asked the overseer (Fred Fisher) what it paid or what my offerings would be...I simply felt it was God's will to be here. I came to a church that was barely making it financially, had bills stacked up and even had cut off notices from the utility companies. My family and I struggled for 2 years barely scrapping by and then I made the conscious decision to go to work so my wife could be home with our children. I know what it is to stand in a food line at another church just to have something to eat in the house...I worked outside of the church for almost 7 years but during that time God provided us with steady growth. In fact, we have grown tothe point that 10 months ago I was able to leave my "other" job and focus full time on ministry again. My salary has not changed in the last 3 years, I refused to allow my church to give me any of the surplus tithes at the end of the church year...Choosing rather to invest the money back into our local church and outreach efforts.

If I could, I would apoligize for all of the wrong that ministers have done in the past and unfortunately, will do in the future but I can't. I just ask that you don't judge us for the faults of a few.

God bless