Allow me to vent

[Brian]

I am sorry I posted my vent. I should have saved it for another venue.

Whaaa? You mean somewhere other than home! We are all family here man. If we can't listen to your vent then there is truly something wrong in the world. LOL

[oletimer]

PG, I believe I lived in that house when I was over there. Wouldn't be in Waphahu(sp??) would it? That was back in 69 and 70. The cost of living was high then. If I hadn't been in the military we would not have been able to make it.

Your thread has more meaning then you know. I'm reminded of the two chruches that I help dig out and the things that we had to do to be there. The first one we moved out on faith over 250 miles from home, found a house, moved in. Got a job and started haveing church in our house and the Lord blessed.I new that there wasn't any money coming and didn't expect much. That wouldn't work just any where unless the Lord was in it.

As a matter of fact I would rather hear or read threads like this then some of those that are going on right now, seems to me to have more meaning and pertain to our now lives. Thanks for bring us back down to reality.

BTW How is your wife?

[RaceRunner]

So I have these people, called of God, passionate about ministry, and the suggestion is that I ask them to pack their families, pull them out their schools, remove them from their social support network, move 5,000 miles from grandma and grandpa, to a very VERY different culture, so they can minister in whatever spare time they can squeeze out of the leftover time from working multiple jobs just to survive here? Sure... sounds like a plan.

"Do it for the cause, brother!" (I wouldn't want that done to me, and I won't do it to others.)

Then don't do it. Use only your natives.

I'm hearing how it CAN'T be done....but allow me to share some things about and our native Overseer in India.

First, our church found out through our now State Overseer that this native Overseer in India suffered in 120 degree heat and had to take 25 showers a day just to survive. Our church purchased them an air conditioner.

This pastor's other letters tell how he was beaten up and had his donated camera and PA system stolen. His arm and leg were painfully injured, but because he is from the lowest caste in India, he could not receive medical care or food unless he professes Hindi. He came to the Assembly, not being able to raise his arm. He left the Assembly healed.

He visited our church and others last month and preached a message how the lowest caste of India were served their food on the ground (not tables) and how the only welfare help they could receive were if they professed to be Hindi and to being the lowest caste. He hit his stomach and said that being a Christian was more important than receiving food! Christians are NOT low caste! (I cried all day long when he preached that.)

All the money he received from offerings and sales of native crocheted bedspreads, tablecloths, etc...went to buy rice for all the pastors in his area. He took donated clothing and a new P.A system home. Unfortunately, some of his luggage of clothes were stolen during the flight home.

He explained that when they go on mission trips, they have a total of 15 seconds to get everyone on board the train. If you do not get on with the equipment...you and it are left behind. He gave us pix of the crowded train ...and how some men had to sit in the bathroom because of no space. He begs God for a vehicle so he can get to more mission fields.


------------------------

If God can move and and provide in the poorest of countries...Aren't His hands big enough to move and provide in the richest?

Perhaps...what we feel is necessary to ministry...may not be so necessary in God's eyes?

God may be using our economy to once again bring us to our knees and prove to us what He deems necessary in our lives and churches.

With God...ALL things are POSSIBLE.

[Pastor Gary]

Then don't do it. Use only your natives.

You have never been here, I suspect, you don't know the people, their culture and the situation... but thanks for your expert advice.

[RaceRunner]

Then don't do it. Use only your natives.

You have never been here, I suspect, you don't know the people, their culture and the situation... but thanks for your expert advice.

I don't have to be the expert on Hawaii or the ministerial field.
But I do know this...from scripture:

YOU CAN'T ask someone to leave all behind, travel thousands of miles, to spend thousands of dollars just to travel there, leaving family, friends, and the familiar behind to go to a different culture with the prospect of working 2-3 jobs to help a church grow. (especially since your own congregation works 2-3 jobs to support themselves and the church.)

BUT if GOD CALLS (COMPELLS) THEM (or me)....and they have the true Minister's heart to listen...you couldn't beat them away with a stick. If God calls...He will provide the way.


----------------------------------------------------

So back to topic...which is about religion in general and not necessarily about Hawaii in particular.

In the light of the letters above from India...the questions may be:

Does what we consider necessary in this modern world for worship....fit what God considers to be necessary?

Although we felt that God gave it to us....God may not consider our 300 seat sanctuary necessary for His service in the near future.

Abraham went to WORSHIP with a stack of wood, a knife and his son.

Abraham was FULLY COMMITTED to fulfill the ultimate sacrifice...which would result in his son being turned into ashes.

Abraham was FULLY CONFIDENT that God would fulfill His promises and provide a way or perform a miracle on his behalf.

Abraham was FULL OF FAITH that his son would be alive at the end of this worship experience, even if God had to raise Isaac from the dead.

True Worship is being fully committed to perform the will of God, to the point of complete surrender and personal sacrifice...fully confident that God will fulfill His promises and even miracuously provide the way....full of faith that no matter the end results, God will be glorified.

So perhaps modern definitions and acts of worship, may not necessarily stack up to God's definitions do they?

Our failing economy may bring us all to the test and the conditions found in India may hit much closer to home.

This ain't just about Hawaii PG...this is about us all.

tw

[dawgs10]

Then don't do it. Use only your natives.

You have never been here, I suspect, you don't know the people, their culture and the situation... but thanks for your expert advice.

speaking for someone that is working in youth ministry and serving basically as the assc. pastor as well for free while i work a retail management job that takes about 55-60 hours a week and everyother weekend of my life and still finding time to try to build relationships, work with young people, plan trips, events and by the way i am also working as a disrict youth planner and i have youth rally services once a month at churchs in the district. i would love to have more pastors in my area that cares like pastor gary seems to. i have a pastor that cares as well but my local church is in a building program and cannot pay me. does that mean that i should quit. NO. but it sure would be nice if i could atleast find a part time job and continue working in ministry. pastor gary i know how you feel!!! those that think that ministers should work one or two jobs and work in ministry should inlarge their vision!!! how much better would our churchs be if we could get past smallness and understand that churchs that have paid staff are reaching more people and see growth to support it. pastor gary, my state overseer has said before that no one really can afford paid staff. but after time with people on staff it supports itself. just something to think about.

[Pastor Chip]

I think it is very interesting (read "annoying") that people who have never stepped out in faith to fulfill their God-called ministry would presume to give instruction and criticism to those who are actually doing the work. It amazes me that so many of the "experts" are those who sit back in their comfortable homes and never risk anything for the gospel.

I think PG is to be commended for the work he has done, and for the fact that he wants to be able to support someone to come and assist him in the work. I am praying that the Lord will provide the means for him to do just that!

[Pastor Gary]

I don't have to be the expert on Hawaii or the ministerial field.

No, you don't, but it would make your posts on this topic more relevant and your advice more worthy of consideration.

I remember before we had kids; we were the world's leading experts on how everybody else should raise theirs.

Seriously: I tries to gently hint, and it obviously sailed right over your head... you have no clue what you are taking about. You have been, apparently, a good, faithful local church volunteer. Stay there. It is NOTHING like quitting your secular security-blanket job, relocating to a new area and starting over, and facing the uncertainties and whims of serving a congregation.

Do that, then call me. Until then, perhaps I will make the subject of this post: "Hey PASTORS: may I vent?"

[RaceRunner]

I think it is very interesting (read "annoying") that people who have never stepped out in faith to fulfill their God-called ministry would presume to give instruction and criticism to those who are actually doing the work. It amazes me that so many of the "experts" are those who sit back in their comfortable homes and never risk anything for the gospel.

Sorry I couldn't answer your post earlier this morning....

I was actually going door to door in a neighborhood this morning collecting prayer requests for our church to pray over.

Also studying to take care of my monthly Bible Study (BTI to all you old timers). I usually take a month to study. I love, love, love teaching this class! I am also personally studying on Grace, so I can take the test and teach it by the beginning of the year.

Am currently in planning sessions to revamp our weekly children's class (Gleaners to all the old-timers) into a VBS type arrangement on a weekly basis.

I did just give up State Missionary work (after 3 years) so I could stay home to work more in my local church and allow my state to hear someone else with fresh ideas and zeal. (hi emily!) I do have to admit that I did request my pastor to relieve me from my Care Group (ABM) because it just doesn't seem to be my particular calling and I am trying to work on quality...not quantity to avoid burnout.

I also fill in as an assistant SS teacher when needed....which I usually know that I'm stepping in the night before...so you have to keep on top of the lesson. (however, I was caught by surprise a couple of weeks ago...Thank God He stepped in and provided the inspiration at the last minute and reminded me of a class lesson I had already studied for.)

We've already prayed over this decision.... and the door remained opened for us to remain in B'ham for approx. 2 more years. However, if my husband's job calls him to Kansas City (a city where our closest church is 2+ hours away), we may have to become a church mission planter in the near future. Not Hawaii...but....

I have been thinking on, praying over, wondering if I should become a licensed teacher. My dream and one that I'm working on....mulling over....writing on....is writing Sunday School material. But I would need a license first....so I have a few more studies to accomplish first.

What was that again....I'm neglecting my God called ministries??????

[RaceRunner]

I don't have to be the expert on Hawaii or the ministerial field.

No, you don't, but it would make your posts on this topic more relevant and your advice more worthy of consideration.

I remember before we had kids; we were the world's leading experts on how everybody else should raise theirs.

Seriously: I tries to gently hint, and it obviously sailed right over your head... you have no clue what you are taking about. You have been, apparently, a good, faithful local church volunteer. Stay there. ?"

You're right PG. Although, your hint didn't sail over my head....I have overstepped my boundaries when reminding you how nothing is impossible with God. However, you seem to live in a state where it is. I have been properly chastised. I beg your forgiveness.

It is NOTHING like quitting your secular security-blanket job, relocating to a new area and starting over, and facing the uncertainties and whims of serving a congregation.

Do that, then call me. Until then, perhaps I will make the subject of this post: "Hey PASTORS: may I vent

As noted in the post above...I just may do that in the future and it may not be 2 years from now...in Kansas City...if and when God calls us to be mission planters. However, we'll probably keep the jobs....so we can support a mission work and all you know. Since neither of us are called to preach...we'll have to just plant and teach and pray until God calls a pastor to "go ye" and take over. But that would be impossible wouldn't it?

[Pastor Chip]

I think it is very interesting (read "annoying") that people who have never stepped out in faith to fulfill their God-called ministry would presume to give instruction and criticism to those who are actually doing the work. It amazes me that so many of the "experts" are those who sit back in their comfortable homes and never risk anything for the gospel.

We've already prayed over this decision.... and the door remained opened for us to remain in B'ham for approx. 2 more years. However, if my husband's job calls him to Kansas City (a city where our closest church is 2+ hours away), we may have to become a church mission planter in the near future. Not Hawaii...but....

All you are doing is great. Like PG said, I wish I had a few more people with that kind of commitment in my church; however, that is not the case. When you do start that mission church you might understand a little better what I was talking about. As it stands, since you apparently can not relate from an experiential standpoint to PG's original post, your comments are not so well taken.

[RaceRunner]

I think it is very interesting (read "annoying") that people who have never stepped out in faith to fulfill their God-called ministry would presume to give instruction and criticism to those who are actually doing the work. It amazes me that so many of the "experts" are those who sit back in their comfortable homes and never risk anything for the gospel.

We've already prayed over this decision.... and the door remained opened for us to remain in B'ham for approx. 2 more years. However, if my husband's job calls him to Kansas City (a city where our closest church is 2+ hours away), we may have to become a church mission planter in the near future. Not Hawaii...but....

All you are doing is great. Like PG said, I wish I had a few more people with that kind of commitment in my church; however, that is not the case. When you do start that mission church you might understand a little better what I was talking about. As it stands, since you apparently can not relate from an experiential standpoint to PG's original post, your comments are not so well taken.

Point taken.

You're right.

I have been properly chastised.

Did you read the letters from India????

tw

[Pastor Gary]

But that would be impossible wouldn't it?

I think I take back what I said about wishing I had a bunch of members like you. I already have enough people who have never done it, but can tell me exactly how I should be doing it.

[RaceRunner]

But that would be impossible wouldn't it?

I think I take back what I said about wishing I had a bunch of members like you. I already have enough people who have never done it, but can tell me exactly how I should be doing it.

But at least I would help and lend my support.

[Pastor Chip]

I think it is very interesting (read "annoying") that people who have never stepped out in faith to fulfill their God-called ministry would presume to give instruction and criticism to those who are actually doing the work. It amazes me that so many of the "experts" are those who sit back in their comfortable homes and never risk anything for the gospel.

We've already prayed over this decision.... and the door remained opened for us to remain in B'ham for approx. 2 more years. However, if my husband's job calls him to Kansas City (a city where our closest church is 2+ hours away), we may have to become a church mission planter in the near future. Not Hawaii...but....

All you are doing is great. Like PG said, I wish I had a few more people with that kind of commitment in my church; however, that is not the case. When you do start that mission church you might understand a little better what I was talking about. As it stands, since you apparently can not relate from an experiential standpoint to PG's original post, your comments are not so well taken.

Point taken.

You're right.

Pat yourself on the back. I've been properly chastised and rebuked.

Did you read the letters from India????

tw

LOL. I'm not trying to chastise or rebuke you! No, I didn't read the letters from India. I know how God works and that He provides for those who step out in faith. I've done it and am doing it now as I am planting a new church. I just find it rather annoying when people who have never done that in a real and substantial way try to instruct people who are doing it. I'm sorry if I've offended you!