Church s(hopping)

[Russell Roberts]

Mike, you might want to get a log truck to pull that beam out of your eye. You have been pretty rude to Dr. Wright who I presume you know nothing about, DUDE.

[MacUser]

need I worry about it here in my locale?

*Hummm* I don't think you have to worry. The issues you already wrestle with locally are obviously enough.

[N.T. Wright Fan]

Brother.

Mrs. Smith attended a church, then basically implied that the pastor and others there were sleeping around. Why? Because she and/or her husband somehow "discerned" it.

And then you say, because I point out how ridiculous that is, that I am the one who needs to be careful?

Gotcha.

[Mike Vande]

Brother.

Mrs. Smith attended a church, then basically implied that the pastor and others there were sleeping around. Why? Because she and/or her husband somehow "discerned" it.

And then you say, because I point out how ridiculous that is, that I am the one who needs to be careful?

Gotcha.

You're funny, Doc. No "gotcha", not really. A "Jezebel spirit" is not exclusively or even necessarily a spirit of adultery; Jezebel's sins had more to do with persecuting God's representatives, mannishly dominating her husband, and leading him to drag Israel into idolatry with them than they did adultery. Dr. Wright, haven't you ever read about Jezebel?

Nothing Jennifer said supports this unfounded conclusion you have jumped to. You misunderstood what she said. As far as I can tell, accusations of adultery are in your head, not hers or her husband's.

I remain unimpressed with your scholarship, dude.

But, even if she had said the things you claim she did, your remarks were prima facie rude, sarcastic, and not really even very clever. You should really sanctify your tongue, Dr. Wright. Failing in that is gonna undermine everything you do.

And by the way, I just read my post over again, and you know, I didn't tell you to be careful, not even once. I suggested you be respectful, and that for your own benefit. Doctor, you really don't seem to have understood much of what you've read here. Where do your degrees come from?

[Mike Vande]

Mike, you might want to get a log truck to pull that beam out of your eye. You have been pretty rude to Dr. Wright who I presume you know nothing about, DUDE.

My remarks were not in the least rude. They were matter-of-fact and not very gentle, but since the good doctor was willing to dish it out, I assumed he would be ready and able to take it. If I was wrong in assuming so, I certainly apologize, and will make every effort to handle Dr. Wright with my softest kid gloves from here on out.

Oh, and I call all the guys here "dude", dude. It's meant to be inclusive, as it is pretty much everywhere these days. You and the doctor ought to get out more, dude, there are a lot of things you don't seem aware of.

[Jennifer Smith]

I agree with Mike that a Jezebel spirit primarily seeks to control and has to do with idolatry.

I didn't want a controversy but I did invite comment and questions, I'm okay with that. It was an interesting experience.

My husband has pastored churches in which a Jezebel spirit manifested itself. In one of them, a petite, tiny woman who felt she had a word to share tried to strong-arm a microphone from my 6 ft. 8 husband's hand which he had been about to give her when he had finished speaking. She also swore and rebuked my husband on the platform. That particular incident could not have been more surreal from start to finish!

I do not believe the woman was "possessed"- she was a somewhat new believer who was under demonic influence or "oppressed." She was corrected and others ministered to her from the word and she apologized.

I understand many of the questions, especially yours, Mike. I will have to take some time and answer some of them, when I can hopefully do so in a way that does not provoke more controversy, meaning we will have to agree to disagree when needed and as always, respect one another's opinions and beliefs.

[Mike Vande]

I understand many of the questions, especially yours, Mike. I will have to take some time and answer some of them, when I can hopefully do so in a way that does not provoke more controversy, meaning we will have to agree to disagree when needed and as always, respect one another's opinions and beliefs.

Hon, you didn't provoke a controversy. It was foisted upon you by a person of little discernment, less knowledge than he needed, and even less grace. Do not feel responsible for the good doctor's foibles, they are his alone.

As I said to the doc, I doubt I would support everything you said, but not because I doubt gifts of discernment, or dismiss the influence of ungodly persons and spirits not from God in extant churches as charismatic clattery". I have seen many such abuses, and I have to fight the disgust that rise in my flesh every time I do.

But the attempts of the enemy to produce competing manifestations through some spooky church folks convinces me that the real thing exists all the moire. You don't counterfeit something worthless, after all. But in going after the truth in any matter, I hope I am learning to discuss without demeaning a person unreasonably. I guess I showed today that I can still pull the knives if I choose to, and I may slip again from time to time, but I think I am mostly better than I was. Call it progressive sanctification...

[N.T. Wright Fan]

Jennifer -- First let me apologize if I said anything to hurt your feelings. That was not my intention.

What I had hoped to do was to cause you to carefully consider the words you use. When you say people are being influenced by "a Jezebel spirit," that may be something a certain group of people will understand, but there are others (like me) who really have no idea what you're talking about.

I have no doubt there are many churches in which some people have a very controlling personality. You apparently have run into such people.

Personally, I would be very slow to attribute such a trait in someone to "demonic" influence. I do believe in demons. However, I think it's important that our theology - or, in this case, our demonology - be informed by Scripture.

So, I would continue to press you on that question. What, exactly, do you mean by "a Jezebel spirit?" And what is it that makes you think those people were controlled or influenced by it?

John told us what *he* meant when he used that term. I am simply asking you to do the same.

[Jennifer Smith]

Jennifer -- First let me apologize if I said anything to hurt your feelings. That was not my intention.

What I had hoped to do was to cause you to carefully consider the words you use. When you say people are being influenced by "a Jezebel spirit," that may be something a certain group of people will understand, but there are others (like me) who really have no idea what you're talking about.

I have no doubt there are many churches in which some people have a very controlling personality. You apparently have run into such people.

Personally, I would be very slow to attribute such a trait in someone to "demonic" influence. I do believe in demons. However, I think it's important that our theology - or, in this case, our demonology - be informed by Scripture.

So, I would continue to press you on that question. What, exactly, do you mean by "a Jezebel spirit?" And what is it that makes you think those people were controlled or influenced by it?

John told us what *he* meant when he used that term. I am simply asking you to do the same.

Mr. "Wright",

I appreciate your apology, but it isn't necessary. I think you were under some influence(s) at the time. (J/K)

I have asked several close friends for their take on it and there are many people here I whose counsel I respect... so, I shared with you all what happened, the way it happened, and with the words my husband used in relaying what he felt. He told me there were no specific people, besides the pastor; it was a discernment he gained by the Spirit, and he felt it included some men as well as women (because I asked him about that). That is all I guess I have to say about it....

Take care- Jennifer Smith

[Jennifer Smith]

I understand many of the questions, especially yours, Mike. I will have to take some time and answer some of them, when I can hopefully do so in a way that does not provoke more controversy, meaning we will have to agree to disagree when needed and as always, respect one another's opinions and beliefs.

Hon, you didn't provoke a controversy. It was foisted upon you by a person of little discernment, less knowledge than he needed, and even less grace. Do not feel responsible for the good doctor's foibles, they are his alone.

As I said to the doc, I doubt I would support everything you said, but not because I doubt gifts of discernment, or dismiss the influence of ungodly persons and spirits not from God in extant churches as charismatic clattery". I have seen many such abuses, and I have to fight the disgust that rise in my flesh every time I do.

But the attempts of the enemy to produce competing manifestations through some spooky church folks convinces me that the real thing exists all the moire. You don't counterfeit something worthless, after all. But in going after the truth in any matter, I hope I am learning to discuss without demeaning a person unreasonably. I guess I showed today that I can still pull the knives if I choose to, and I may slip again from time to time, but I think I am mostly better than I was. Call it progressive sanctification...

We are all getting there by the grace of God! PTL for the grace! Even Dr. Wright apologized.

[pastorables]

I have no doubt there are many churches in which some people have a very controlling personality. You apparently have run into such people.

Personally, I would be very slow to attribute such a trait in someone to "demonic" influence. I do believe in demons. However, I think it's important that our theology - or, in this case, our demonology - be informed by Scripture.

So, I would continue to press you on that question. What, exactly, do you mean by "a Jezebel spirit?"

I hesitate to grab the dog by the ears here, but having served pastorates and/or youth pastorates for almost 20 years, I understand more than I desire concerning the realm of demonic spirits.

First, my opinion concerning a "Jezebel spirit" ( the spirits could actually be called by various names as we don't know their real names) is that it is a spirit of rebellion against the authority of God and his representatives. Some might call this a "religious spirit". I believe similar has already been stated. I have faced these types of spirits almost every time true spiritual success was being realized in or associated with my ministry.

I have recognized these spirits working conspicuously in small numbers and I have witnessed grander designs as their work went beyond local churches to include community leaders.

The theology of the spirit world is very real and, unfortunately, we are so afraid of being overly mystical that we fail to accept that fact. I'm not advocating a demon for every blunder, but by the same, I am not willing to hide under the rock of being "politically correct" in the church world either. This is one area that I've had to study due to many battles with Satan's minions.

I would recommend the "fictional" book, "This Present Darkness" by Frank Peretti. Although fiction, the book is written from knowledge and accounts obtained from Peretti's brother, a pastor. This book, along with scripture study and personal experiences, has helped to open my eyes to the spiritual activity around us on a daily basis.

Regards,
pastorables

[Russell Roberts]

my biting sarcasm was inexcusably rude. I apologize and ask your forgiveness.

[Mike Vande]

Dr. Wright apologized.

So far, not to me. "Gotcha"? Puh-lease...

Maybe he should start a band, and call it "Dr. Wright & the Wrongs"...

[N.T. Wright Fan]

Mr. Vande - for which remark do you feel I should apologize?

[Mike Vande]

Mr. Vande - for which remark do you feel I should apologize?

I'm not sure any of your remarks require one, dude.