United Pentecostal Church

[scooter]

Again you display your own ignorance of scripture.

The Encyclopedia is not what you base Biblical Belief Upon.

The Bible is what you base your Belief Upon.


The foundational truth of the trinity is replete in scripture (hundreds of years before "fourth century trinitarianism")

Response: Amen: except for the ignorance part.

[kurt73]

How can you say you have studied it out and at the same time say it is not mentioned??

There is absolutely NO SAMENESS of Modalism and Trinitarianism at any level.

First the word "trinity" or the teaching is never found in the bible. Also the Encyclopaedia Britannica says that the belief of the trinity or that Jesus was god or was part of god did not even exist until two to three hundred years after the death of Jesus. Even the Encyclopedia Americana says “Fourth century Trinitarianism was a deviation from early Christian teaching.” This teaching was adopted into “Christianity” from pagan religions 400 years before Jesus. So how can I take something that originated from pegan religions and say the bible teaches it. Our own Encyclopedias state it being a belief before Christ.

Again you display your own ignorance of scripture.

The Encyclopedia is not what you base Biblical Belief Upon.

The Bible is what you base your Belief Upon.


The foundational truth of the trinity is replete in scripture (hundreds of years before "fourth century trinitarianism")

Do you always call people ignorate when they disagree or don't see things your way?

I used several things to define the word trinity. Every word has a difinition and I showed what trinity means since the bible does not define the word trinity. So the origin of the word started from pegans religions and is used today referring to three gods.

I do not believe in three gods, there is only one God with many names, period! They exist as different manifestations of the one true God.

They are two parts to the name of Jesus.

1) Jehovah

2) Saviour.

So you have the fulfillment of IMMANUEL, which also includes two parts. Immanuel means GOD WITH US.

1) "God"

2) "with us"

In the name of "Jesus" you have "Jehovah", or GOD. And secondly you have Saviour, which corresponds to "with us" since He is "with us" now due to salvation. We are no longer alienated from Him because we have been reconciled to Him by salvation!!

Paul said that Jesus is the name above every other name, including every other name God formerly revealed of Himself! If Jesus is not God's name, then we have a being who possesses a name greater than God's own name!

I do not believe oneness or trinity like mans see it. I believe what the Word of God says and it says there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[Gerald Creasy]

Do you always call people ignorate when they disagree or don't see things your way?

No I call people ignorant who display ignorance. You have made several statements that dsiplay a "lack of knowledge" of the subject.

A "lack of knowledge" is the definition of the word ignorant.

I myself am ignorant of many many things.

I used several things to define the word trinity. Every word has a difinition and I showed what trinity means since the bible does not define the word trinity. So the origin of the word started from pegans religions and is used today referring to three gods.

Again this is ignorance.

The word does not come from paegan religion. It comes from Old English meaning trio or threefold.

If You did not lack knowledge of scripture you would know that while the word Trinity is NOt used, the idea encasulated when a Christian uses the word trinity is manifest.

I do not believe in three gods, there is only one God with many names, period! They exist as different manifestations of the one true God.

They are two parts to the name of Jesus.

1) Jehovah

2) Saviour.

So you have the fulfillment of IMMANUEL, which also includes two parts. Immanuel means GOD WITH US.

1) "God"

2) "with us"

In the name of "Jesus" you have "Jehovah", or GOD. And secondly you have Saviour, which corresponds to "with us" since He is "with us" now due to salvation. We are no longer alienated from Him because we have been reconciled to Him by salvation!!

Paul said that Jesus is the name above every other name, including every other name God formerly revealed of Himself! If Jesus is not God's name, then we have a being who possesses a name greater than God's own name!

I do not believe oneness or trinity like mans see it. I believe what the Word of God says and it says there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

If you do not believe The Trinity as properly defined then you have embraced Heresy over knowledge.

I suggest you do a complet study of the Bible to fill up the lack of knowledge that pulls you into an aberrant form of Christianity.

Perhaps you can start with this as a guide:
The Holy Trinity

[kurt73]

Gerald, with all due respect, you continue on calling me ignorant but yet you had proven what I said wrong. Yet you give me a link to mans book on your understanding of trinity. I give you what encyclopedias say about it and I'm ignorant. I give you a couple of scriptures to show my point but yet I'm ignorant. Your walk is your walk and I'm not going to question it but do not throw stones when you live in a glass house.

[Gerald Creasy]

Gerald, with all due respect, you continue on calling me ignorant but yet you had proven what I said wrong. Yet you give me a link to mans book on your understanding of trinity. I give you what encyclopedias say about it and I'm ignorant. I give you a couple of scriptures to show my point but yet I'm ignorant. Your walk is your walk and I'm not going to question it but do not throw stones when you live in a glass house.

I am not concerened with your or my walk or even your or my ignorance.

I AM concerned with what we as Pentecostals say about GOD.

You have quoted a miniscule amount of Biblical statements regarding God and attempt to draw a conclusion.

I suggest a book which is a larger collection of Biblical statements for a better understanding of the Proper Christian Understanding of the Trinity.

However, If you wish to continue in ignorance it is your descision.

[kurt73]

Gerald, with all due respect, you continue on calling me ignorant but yet you had proven what I said wrong. Yet you give me a link to mans book on your understanding of trinity. I give you what encyclopedias say about it and I'm ignorant. I give you a couple of scriptures to show my point but yet I'm ignorant. Your walk is your walk and I'm not going to question it but do not throw stones when you live in a glass house.

I am not concerened with your or my walk or even your or my ignorance.

I AM concerned with what we as Pentecostals say about GOD.

You have quoted a miniscule amount of Biblical statements regarding God and attempt to draw a conclusion.

I suggest a book which is a larger collection of Biblical statements for a better understanding of the Proper Christian Understanding of the Trinity.

However, If you wish to continue in ignorance it is your descision.

If that makes you feel better or more intelligent then so be it. I quoted scripture and by taking it just as face value proves there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[Gerald Creasy]

If that makes you feel better or more intelligent then so be it. I quoted scripture and by taking it just as face value proves there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

If you believe that how can you say there is no diffence between Modalism and trinitarianism?

[kurt73]

If that makes you feel better or more intelligent then so be it. I quoted scripture and by taking it just as face value proves there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

If you believe that how can you say there is no diffence between Modalism and trinitarianism?

Easy, if I believe in God, then I believe in Jesus and Holy Ghost. If I only believe in oneness, then I believe the three are one. Is not this same thing? God has many names in the bible, if I call on Jesus am I not also calling on God? Jesuis is the Name above all names! What other names are they: I Am, Jehovah, Alpha and Omega, The Rock, The Sword, The Word, etc.

[Gerald Creasy]

Easy, if I believe in God, then I believe in Jesus and Holy Ghost. If I only believe in oneness, then I believe the three are one. Is not this same thing? God has many names in the bible, if I call on Jesus am I not also calling on God? Jesuis is the Name above all names! What other names are they: I Am, Jehovah, Alpha and Omega, The Rock, The Sword, The Word, etc.

You are arguing semantics.

If you believe there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

How can you say there is no difference than the oneness belief of ONE God that APPEARED in three modes??? (Each person being ONLY a manifestation)

[kurt73]

Easy, if I believe in God, then I believe in Jesus and Holy Ghost. If I only believe in oneness, then I believe the three are one. Is not this same thing? God has many names in the bible, if I call on Jesus am I not also calling on God? Jesuis is the Name above all names! What other names are they: I Am, Jehovah, Alpha and Omega, The Rock, The Sword, The Word, etc.

You are arguing semantics.

If you believe there is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

How can you say there is no difference than the oneness belief of ONE God that APPEARED in three modes??? (Each person being ONLY a manifestation)

Did I say I'm modalism, no. Then tell me this, show where your bible says they are three gods, three separate gods? If that is the case you broke a commandment by having another god. There is only one God! He is a jealous God. John 1:1-3 says God is all things.

[Gerald Creasy]

Did I say I'm modalism, no. Then tell me this, show where your bible says they are three gods, three separate gods? If that is the case you broke a commandment by having another god. There is only one God! He is a jealous God. John 1:1-3 says God is all things.

Modalism is what is meant by "Oneness"

Why would I show you the Bible says there are three Gods when it does not?

[Pastor Bill]

Did I say I'm modalism, no. Then tell me this, show where your bible says they are three gods, three separate gods? If that is the case you broke a commandment by having another god. There is only one God! He is a jealous God. John 1:1-3 says God is all things.

There is a difference between modalism and the more traditional understanding of the trinity. You are correct the Bible does not define that word, or use that word, but the concept is there and easy to see.

Modalists believe that our ONE God changed modes, first being only the Father, then becoming only the Son, and now being only the Holy Ghost.

Trinitarians believe exactly what you stated One God ETERNALLY existing as THREE persons.

The whole concept is a little difficult for our small minds to completely comprehend, and that's why it seems there are many understandings of this, but these two are very different, and modalism (IMHO) causes some very difficult theological and practical application problems.

[Pastor Bill]

Modalism is what is meant by "Oneness"

On that I'd have to disagree with you, I know many who call themselves "Oneness" who won't use the word trinity, but will explain it just the same, and are NOT modalists (they just rebel against the term trinity, and are blind to the fact we are teaching the same thing) BUT they also are very picky on the fact that Christ was fully God, and reject baptism or other things done in any wording other than "In Jesus' Name".

[scooter]

Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.

Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God (i.e., who God is). "Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus... modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." [1]

[kurt73]

Modalism is what is meant by "Oneness"

On that I'd have to disagree with you, I know many who call themselves "Oneness" who won't use the word trinity, but will explain it just the same, and are NOT modalists (they just rebel against the term trinity, and are blind to the fact we are teaching the same thing) BUT they also are very picky on the fact that Christ was fully God, and reject baptism or other things done in any wording other than "In Jesus' Name".

Exactly Pastor Bill, all the UPC people I know (which is a lot) believe what we believe but refuse to use the word trinity.

Just as oneness gets labels attached to it like modalism, trinity gets lables attach to it like believing in three gods. Which is my whole point in this thread. Both oneness and trinity believes the same. I know because I have talked to them not because a book tells me they are modalism which is incorrect. No where in the UPC or the Apostolic denominations did I hear or read they are modalism.