Billy Graham "jumps the shark"

[scooter]

I can understand what he is saying.

Shoot me call me crazy, yada, yada yada.

19:1 [To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork *.
19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

Of course I wouldn't take this to an extreme but I believe that the voice of God may transcend our limited understanding. Niether would this apply to all scenerios nor to the rejection of Christ Jesus.

I look to the just attributes of God.

Some "Christian" religions say that babies go to hell.

I really don't think they do.

Why because God is a just and righteous God.

In the same path of thought is there possiblity that through God speaking to the heart of someone that has never heard "the Gospel" that they might respond to HIs speaking in soulful truth?

Isn't Christ the Word that speaks?

Let's say an indigious American Indian never heard the name Jesus, but heard the voice of God that gives a measure of faith to all and responds by living a life of honesty and integrity before God, could God through Christ save him?

Let's say he repented of stealing chickens and stopped.

Is it beyond enternal justice that Christ, through his blood sacrifice and mercy has such individuals covered?

Or is salvation found only in a generic recitation of "Jesus come into my heart"?

These are questions.

[Gerald Creasy]

Then if it was just an altruistic or moral Idea that you have to believe in one wonders why Jesus would have to come at all.

Was all that blood spurting really necessary if all one had to do was appeal to a moral code and a warm fuzzy feeling???

[scooter]

Then if it was just an altruistic or moral Idea that you have to believe in one wonders why Jesus would have to come at all.

Was all that blood spurting really necessary if all one had to do was appeal to a moral code and a warm fuzzy feeling???

Response: How long do you figure it took for the message of the blood of Christ to reach America?

We know that prior to the cross men were saved based upon their relationship to God, of course that was also eventually through Christ. Could the same idea previal?

[dolfan]

Gerald, I hear you, bro, seriously. At the same time, there are reports of tribal people, isolated people, people who have not heard whether Jesus exists or anything about Him from any other living human or otherwise, and at some point later, they do come in contact with, for example, a missionary or Christian, and they report that this person the Christian speaks of visited him in a dream or vision many years before and that this person heeded what they were told ... in other words, they came to saving faith. There are reports that in these circumstances, the person didn't call Himself "Jesus".

I think we do have to weigh these reports some amount of caution. After all, Paul himself was saved and appointed as an apostle not through the human work of any evangelist, but through a direct visitation of Jesus. Different situation, yes. But, even with all of his life rooted in Judaism, even with all of his knowledge of what Jesus' life in public had meant for Israel in terms of upheaval and controversy, the apostles did not assume that, "Oh, well, he must know, then, so let's just welcome him." Paul didn't expect them to, either, evidently. He went away, studied, grew, developed into "the apostle Paul". Then, afterwards, the Jerusalem apostles accepted him as an apostle. No little deal, there. Cautiously, it happened.

Nothing wrong with caution here. By the same token, we need to be cautious before rejecting that God can and does work to save people as Graham described. To the extent that we would dismiss those encounters, we have to take responsibility for then doing what we say that God won't do [reach them with the message], don't we? Seems to me that the path of rejection is one that deserves equal caution.

God does not assure us of easy decisions, does He?

[scooter]

Beyond that what would keep Christ from dramatic appearances such as with Paul on the Damascus road?

[Gerald Creasy]

The core belief of Christianity is not abandoned because LOTS OF PEOPLE might have been lost that didnt hear about it OR because they heard of something similar.

God decides who hears and who dosent and what he should do with them.

If Jesus is not the core message and belief....if it can be just a good moral feeling....WE are running nothing but pitifully attended social clubs talking about a savior that isnt really necessary.

[scooter]

The core belief of Christianity is not abandoned because LOTS OF PEOPLE might have been lost that didnt hear about it OR because they heard of something similar.

God decides who hears and who dosent and what he should do with them.

If Jesus is not the core message and belief....if it can be just a good moral feeling....WE are running nothing but pitifully attended social clubs talking about a savior that isnt really necessary.

Response: And then we can have keg parties and bingo!

[scooter]

God decides who hears and who dosent and what he should do with them.

Response: Correct! All opinions to the contrary on either side are open for error.

[rough_rider]

If he is perverting the Gospel, all he has done in the past will count for not. Christ and only Christ is over the household that we belong, we are to hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

are you saying that the thousands that came to Christ through his ministry are not counted, or are invalidated because of an apparent heretical proclamation?!?! please help me understand here.

Simply any reward he may receive, he threw away IF he is preaching now a perverted Gospel. I'm not saying B.G. did any such thing, this is just for discussion sake only.

[RamboPreacher]

If he is perverting the Gospel, all he has done in the past will count for not. Christ and only Christ is over the household that we belong, we are to hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

are you saying that the thousands that came to Christ through his ministry are not counted, or are invalidated because of an apparent heretical proclamation?!?! please help me understand here.

Simply any reward he may receive, he threw away IF he is preaching now a perverted Gospel. I'm not saying B.G. did any such thing, this is just for discussion sake only.

ahh - okay, i just read it differently. thanks for the clarification.

[dolfan]

The core belief of Christianity is not abandoned because LOTS OF PEOPLE might have been lost that didnt hear about it OR because they heard of something similar.

God decides who hears and who dosent and what he should do with them.

If Jesus is not the core message and belief....if it can be just a good moral feeling....WE are running nothing but pitifully attended social clubs talking about a savior that isnt really necessary.

Amen and I agree 100%. What Billy Graham and Robert Schuller said, though, was precisely that Jesus Christ Himself introduced Himself in a way that we are not familiar with. It is not just a good moral feeling. I can see where you'd easily take that from Graham's statement (at least what I saw as a transcript ---- if I'm off on that, someone do me a solid and let me know, here), that's why I said it was inartfully stated. That's probably more about just being imprecise in conversation than being, on its own, a theological departure from core Christianity. I can't say I'm 100% sure on Graham's thought, but the transcript explicitly places Jesus Christ revealing Himself as the One as being central to this idea that Graham was describing. That's all I'm sayin' ......

[Gerald Creasy]

The core belief of Christianity is not abandoned because LOTS OF PEOPLE might have been lost that didnt hear about it OR because they heard of something similar.

God decides who hears and who dosent and what he should do with them.

If Jesus is not the core message and belief....if it can be just a good moral feeling....WE are running nothing but pitifully attended social clubs talking about a savior that isnt really necessary.

Amen and I agree 100%. What Billy Graham and Robert Schuller said, though, was precisely that Jesus Christ Himself introduced Himself in a way that we are not familiar with. It is not just a good moral feeling. I can see where you'd easily take that from Graham's statement (at least what I saw as a transcript ---- if I'm off on that, someone do me a solid and let me know, here), that's why I said it was inartfully stated. That's probably more about just being imprecise in conversation than being, on its own, a theological departure from core Christianity. I can't say I'm 100% sure on Graham's thought, but the transcript explicitly places Jesus Christ revealing Himself as the One as being central to this idea that Graham was describing. That's all I'm sayin' ......

I can agree that what he said was stated very sloppily and left the door wide open for the interpretation that "jesus" wasnt really necessary and he could not have meant it as it could be taken.

HOWEVER....

We are existing in a Christianity today where God can be anything and just as long as you use the name "Jesus" everything is okay.

Even former Board members of ORU are moving into Universalism.

In such an enviroment a "sloppy statement" by perhaps the most famous Christian in America is certainly inopportune.

[RamboPreacher]

The core belief of Christianity is not abandoned because LOTS OF PEOPLE might have not received Christ as Savior in that they didnt hear about it OR because they heard of something similar.[/b]

agreed with a minor fix...

God decides who hears and who doesn't and what he should do with them.

are you Calvinist? you are correlating cause and knowledge. I don't think I would do that, but that is your statement.

God definitely knows - (Outside of time; regardless of our perception of past, present and future, since time is part of creation, and by necessity, the Creator is not limited to His Creation) - who hears and who doesn't.

One of the challenges in the C vs A arguments is about that topic. Did God Cause someone to sin? did God know they were going to sin? Certainly the Gift of Salvation is directed by the Holy Spirit, but is any given individual predestined to go to heaven and therefor God Decided Who will go to heaven and God decided who will go to hell? Or Dos God know who will go to heaven or hell based on the choices they make in their life. Is there no general revelation at all?

If Jesus is not the core message and belief....if it can be just a good moral feeling....WE are running nothing but pitifully attended social clubs talking about a savior that isnt really necessary.

exactly.

[Mike Vande]

"Slanderous gossip"!?

Don't be idiotic.

Don't be a jerk...oh...sorry, I forgot, it's Gerald...no way to avoid it. Go ahead, you can't stop yourself....

[Gerald Creasy]

"Slanderous gossip"!?

Don't be idiotic.

Don't be a jerk...oh...sorry, I forgot, it's Gerald...no way to avoid it. Go ahead, you can't stop yourself....

Dont you ever get tired of behaving like a 12 year old?