Strange coincidence or Ordered steps?

[Gerald Creasy]

I am surprised by some of you. Someone asked if it was Gods will for 911? Of course it was! Or do you suppose God was out to lunch when the planes were headed to the buildings? Do you suppose He just took a sideline view of the big bad devil? That He couldn't step in if He chose? Well if He COULD have stepped in but DIDN'T then what does that tell you?

And as far as God willing someone to be a sinner.... last time I checked we were ALL born sinners, not just you ImaPK. LOL

Brian.

Most Christians either are semi-deist (things just happen and God is on vacation, dosent care, or only gets specificlly involved because he's impressed cause you sang that special chorus till you dang near passed out) or there is some sort of GOD/DEVIL STRUGGLE for control -as In Ms. Smiths deep theological observations where it is sometimes God that sends hurricanes and it's sometimes the Devil that sends hurricanes -Who really knows? If Mr. Jones old barn which he was going to have to pay tons of money to get torn down blows away then God sent the hurricane, but if the same storm kills Mrs. Browns lovley daughter then THE DEVIL sent the hurricane. Thus God's actions and the Devils actions are indistiguishable or are redefined from person to person.

[RaceRunner]

...or only gets specificlly involved because he's impressed cause you sang that special chorus till you...near passed out)

Ha!

[Tracy]

Good points, Gerald. And you are right--the Bible simply doesn't say that sometimes God is involved in the storms and sometimes He isn't. It simply says that He sends them, He guides them, they obey Him, and they accomplish His purposes and fulfil His word. Period. That's just the way it is in the universe. It is so clear in the Word, but so different from the "God made in the image of what we want Him to be or think He should be" that so many of us have been taught. It is hard to swallow when truth is seen. It is hard to take.

[Jennifer Smith]

I think the enemy also has power over storms, sent a storm to destroy Job's home.

Actually, in Job, God is the primary force behind the storm and raid and fire. Satan certainly has a hand in it--but he is a secondary cause. Notice that the Bible says that the "Fire of God" fell from heaven, (Job 1), and after the raid and wind came, Job said, "The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away." Job correctly understood that though Satan has a hand in the events, it was God ultimately who ordained them and stood behind them ultimately.

Further, you can see from the verses that I posted that winds and storms obey God and are ultimately attributed to HIM--they turn around according to His guidance that they may do whatever He commands. This is a truth about God that we learn from the Bible: winds and storms do His bidding, His purpose, He turns them. They "fulfill His Word."


"If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?" Amos 3:6


God certainly ordains even the calamities that occur in our world. If He doesn't, then He isn't God, for someone or something else is overruling His purposes and thwarting them. But this is impossible, for Job 41 says, "For I know that you are God, and no purpose of Yours can be thwarted." And just a few verses later God says that Job has spoken of Him what is right.

Yes, even the "bad" things in our world are ordained by God, all for mysterious, holy purposes. I don't pretend to understand or to have plumbed the mysterious depths of the mind of God. What I do know is what the Bible says so clearly--that nothing happens outside of His purposes, that He rules over everything and has purposes for every, single event. He is God. There is no such thing as a Satan who frustrates His purposes, there is no such thing as human free will that frustrates His purposes, there is no such thing as chance or coincidence or cold fronts or Swine flu or cancer cells that operate one iota outside of His perfect plan and purpose and design from all eternity.

And I couldn't live otherwise. I live off of this--this amazing truth about our Amazing God.

Blessings,
Tracy

Tracy, I respect what you have to say, and I do not believe a purpose of God can be thwarted, but not everything that happens is of God's purpose. According to the Bible we are in a battle. Many things that God has allowed are truly from the enemy. This does not mean that God has brought them about or caused them in any way. Was Adam and Eve's original sin of God, or of man's flesh and the temptation of the enemy? It was not his original plan for mankind. His plan was to bless and fellowship with us as He did in the beginning when He walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening. Paul said, "I desire that you may prosper and be in good health, even as thy soul prospers," while the enemy comes to "steal, kill and destroy". We have been called to put on the armor of God and fight, and as we overcome the schemes of the enemy, we obey God's will and fulfill God's purpose and plan for us. We walk by the Spirit and as we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. The deceiver wants us to fatalistically accept everything that happens as if it is from God. If sin had not entered in, Jesus would not have had to come to redeem us. Romans 5:12

I may not see it just the way you do, but thank you or whoever started this for an interesting conversation!

Jennifer

[Tracy]

Tracy, I respect what you have to say, and I do not believe a purpose of God can be thwarted, but not everything that happens is of God's purpose.

But if it happens, then it is according to His purpose, because He purposed for it to happen and didn't purpose for it not to not happen.

Keep in mind that no where have I disacknowledged the existence of second causes--Satan, human beings, etc. What I have said is what the Bible says: nothing happens outside of His purposes. If anything frustrates God, then God isn't God. Whatever succeeded in frustrating God is God.

[Full Quiver]

I know that the word says that it is not Gods will that any should perish. Some do. Does that mean God isn't in control? NO!

Actually it is not God's Will that any should perish but ALL come to repentance and sadly MOST DON"T. This is absolute proof that God was not in control over these individuals or else they would all be saved because HE would have made/designed them to repent.

2+2=4 from where I come from but some don't believe this obviously.



I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for [there is] a time there for every purpose and for every work.

Proof there is more than one purpose at work this Earth.

[scooter]

Tracy, I respect what you have to say, and I do not believe a purpose of God can be thwarted, but not everything that happens is of God's purpose.

But if it happens, then it is according to His purpose, because He purposed for it to happen and didn't purpose for it not to not happen.

Keep in mind that no where have I disacknowledged the existence of second causes--Satan, human beings, etc. What I have said is what the Bible says: nothing happens outside of His purposes. If anything frustrates God, then God isn't God. Whatever succeeded in frustrating God is God.

Response: Oh the bliss!

[scooter]

Even Stranger.

During a lull in the conversation on our 9 hour trip from FLA to TN Wednesday, Scooter began to hum the opening rift from Seals & Crofts
Summer Breeze from 1972.

Immediately he turned the radio on and punched Seek.

Wanna guess what the first song it landed on was?

10 miles outta Chattsworth and he's pulling in 37 year old songs out of the ether.


.

Response: I'm well adjusted and in tune with my surroundings.

[Jennifer Smith]

Even Stranger.

During a lull in the conversation on our 9 hour trip from FLA to TN Wednesday, Scooter began to hum the opening rift from Seals & Crofts
Summer Breeze from 1972.

Immediately he turned the radio on and punched Seek.

Wanna guess what the first song it landed on was?

10 miles outta Chattsworth and he's pulling in 37 year old songs out of the ether.


.

Response: I'm well adjusted and in tune with my surroundings.

Or maybe God wanted to bless you scooter!

[Brian]

Gerald, I guess I can agree that most Christian's probably do fall in line with what you described but not here at Jude2!!! We are a unique bunch wouldn't you say?

[pastorables]

But the Bible says that God did it ultimately. Yes, Satan is a second cause, but the Bible recognizes God sovereignly ordaining the events.

I believe that this discussion has become a spectacle of semantics.

Yes, God is sovereign and in control of all things, but it seems in the case of Job that God gave permission to Satan to bring about the various attacks upon Job's household. I could be wrong, but this seems to be what Jennifer and FQ are saying.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power;

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

We find a similar permission allowed in Luke:

Luke 13:16 "And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?"

In Daniel 10:10-14, it appears that Satan had power to hinder the angelic messenger from getting to Daniel sooner, etc.

10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands. 11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling. 12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Ultimately, you can either believe that God plays chess matches with the Devil (which God always wins) on a regular basis, or you can believe that God ordained the motion of all "spiritual law" and intervenes when necessary.

I tend to believe the latter, but is there really that much difference when we all concede that God is the only omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent ruler.

pa

[oletimer]

With much having been said, I find this verse handy.

Mt 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust

I tend to think that sometimes that God has intervening propose for some of the things that happen, yet most of the times He just let things happen. He knows how it will end and what it will be at the end of the day.

Remember that God made man with the abilitily to think and chose what we want to do. Part of the "in our image and our likness".

I know this thought can go much deeper, but I'll stop here.

[Jamais Vu]

so what is the purpose of all the hundreds of thousands of innocent children being raped, abused, and murdered at the hands of people whom have never been caught? what is the greater cause, after all God is a just God right??

what about when God repented himself back in noahs time because the people had become so evil?? God changed his mind.......which means the chaotic events of free will could have gone down a different path.

God does not force himself upon us, you have a CHOICE. RIGHT NOW you could choose to take your own life. THAT IS NOT God's will, nor would it be an event controlled by God.

[Jennifer Smith]

I think it is important because it affects how we live our lives as Christians. If we are fatalistic, when someone gets sick, we say, "It has been nice knowing you. It seems to be the will of God that you die now."
But, if we believe that we can pray and that God can heal, we will pray as the Lord has said in the Word and the person can be healed.

[Gerald Creasy]

so what is the purpose of all the hundreds of thousands of innocent children being raped, abused, and murdered at the hands of people whom have never been caught? what is the greater cause, after all God is a just God right??

what about when God repented himself back in noahs time because the people had become so evil?? God changed his mind.......which means the chaotic events of free will could have gone down a different path.

God does not force himself upon us, you have a CHOICE. RIGHT NOW you could choose to take your own life. THAT IS NOT God's will, nor would it be an event controlled by God.

Have you ever read the passage from Jeremiah where Jeremiah claims God forced himself upon him? He uses a word that is also used for rape.

If Jeremiah a prophet of God uses such language, what was HIS choice in the matter?


What was Josephs choice when he was thrown in a well and then in Prison?
What choice did he have then?
Yet the Bible says GOD had intention in those events.


What I find interesting is that there is SO MUCH SCRIPTURE that CHRISTIANS REFUSE TO THINK ABOUT.