What are you doing tonight? Why not...

[RaceRunner]

Now you know we made a pact.

Christ did not institute a commandment to observe the Passover. He commanded us to remember His sacrifice through the Lord's Supper.

Sure He did, at least a Christian version of it. Indeed, the whole Passover festival, with it's three feasts, and various customs, typify and commemorate the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Nevertheless, on the specific point of communion, the Lord's Supper is a Christianized Passover observance.

What bread is His body? What cup is His blood?
The Passover bread and cup.

What meal was He eating with His disciples?
The Passover.

What feast commemorates Christ as the lamb of God?
Passover.

During what festival time was unleavened bread instituted and used?
Passover.

On what night did Christ institute the keeping of the supper (at least in an abbreviated form) in a Christian context ?
The same night he was betrayed - Passover.

What feast day does apostolic precedent show us keeping the communion in connection with?
Passover.

What does history tell us was the day the early church observed communion and commemorated the Passion of Christ, as handed down and taught from the apostles themselves, until changed by the council of Nicaea?
Passover.

Once you peel back the centuries of wrong practice, Catholic influence, antisemitism, etc., and start considering the 1st century Jewish cultural context it is surprisingly clear to see from just a casual reading of NT Scripture.

Am I saying we have to keep all the Jewish customs and Seder traditions? No. What I am saying is that we were meant to take communion on Passover.

Just like Israel remembered liberation from Egypt & the blood of paschal lambs on Passover, we now remember it's greater purpose in Christ, liberation from sin & the blood of the true Lamb.

[MacUser]

Am I saying we have to keep all the Jewish customs and Seder traditions? No. What I am saying is that we were meant to take communion on Passover.

Yet we are now free to enjoy this anytime and do it as often as we like. It's powerful stuff. We are essentially reminding ourselves of His new covenant set forth.

Just like Israel remembered liberation from Egypt & the blood of paschal lambs on Passover, we now remember it's greater purpose in Christ, liberation from sin & the blood of the true Lamb.

Bingo.
It's like kissing the photograph of your wife when you already have her next to you. These things told of HIS coming and now that Jesus is here.. it's all about Him and not any of these old covenant religious practices.

I dare say we have enough covenant confusion today in the Church and need to be clear as Paul states in Galatians 3. ( whole chapter awesome!)

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22. But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Also as Paul in 1 Timothy 1:3,4 warns against..

..so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4. nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by Faith.

[Poimen]

Sorry Chris. Though I certainly agree about Christ being the center of our faith, a living and present reality among us, by the Spirit, I disagree with the implications your post has towards the importance of passover in Christian practice. What you advocate is essentially throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Passover was made a Christian observance by Christ with the institution of the Lord's Supper. That was the whole intent, to make the Passover celebration a remembrance of Jesus' sacrificial death to His disciples. And he commanded us to observe it till he comes. THAT is what Paul means when he says "as oft as you do this". It's all drawn from the Hebraic roots of our faith and practice.

In short, Passover, as Christian observance (specifically in Communion) transcends the law.

[scooter]

Sorry Chris. Though I certainly agree about Christ being the center of our faith, a living and present reality among us, by the Spirit, I disagree with the implications your post has towards the importance of passover in Christian practice. What you advocate is essentially throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Passover was made a Christian observance by Christ with the institution of the Lord's Supper. That was the whole intent, to make the Passover celebration a remembrance of Jesus' sacrificial death to His disciples. And he commanded us to observe it till he comes. THAT is what Paul means when he says "as oft as you do this". It's all drawn from the Hebraic roots of our faith and practice.

In short, Passover, as Christian observance (specifically in Communion) transcends the law.

Response: And means what? That we simply substitute one religious practice for another.

I have never specifically celebrated the passover with communion that I remember.

If I never have communion again I'll still be just as saved by the reality of what lies beyond the symbolism.

[oletimer]

Poimen wrote:
Passover was made a Christian observance by Christ with the institution of the Lord's Supper.

I don't see where it was to continual as the Passover with a different twist, but rather as the "Communion". I think that you are reading more into this then is there on the part of the 'Passover". The Passover as you well know was the rememberance of the passing over the house with the blood of the lamb on the door post. This is a Jewish holiday and not a New Testament one, but the Communion was instituted by Christ and is a New Testament ordinance. Though The Passover was a fore runner of the redempted Blood of Christ (type and shadow), (Good preaching material), not the Communion and one should include the "Feet Washing".

Scooter wrote:
If I never have communion again I'll still be just as saved by the reality of what lies beyond the symbolism.

Joh 13:4
He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.Joh 
13:5
After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Joh 13:6
Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
Joh 13:7
Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
Joh 13:8
Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
Joh 13:9
Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Joh 13:10
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11
For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
Joh 13:12
So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?Joh 13:13
Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14
If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.Joh 
13:15
For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
Joh 13:17
If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.


1Co 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Scooter just how many of these verses would have to torned out of the bible to go along with your frame of mind? If you believe in the saving grace and power of the Blood then following the rest of the commandments of the Lord shouldn't be problem, but rather a great joy. Now if one is not worthy, yes they do not need to partake of the Communion.

[scooter]

Scooter just how many of these verses would have to torned out of the bible to go along with your frame of mind? If you believe in the saving grace and power of the Blood then following the rest of the commandments of the Lord shouldn't be problem, but rather a great joy. Now if one is not worthy, yes they do not need to partake of the Communion.

Response: Everyone one that is twisted to make a "new" set of religious cerimonial requirements, by people who set themselves up as judges of others in direct conflict of scripture. Kind of like a circle.

Funny that you use the same schtick that the good ole baptist use about women speaking in churches, "Well you just have to tear that one right out of the Bible".

I've heard it all before. The yokes on you.

[oletimer]

Response: Everyone one that is twisted to make a "new" set of religious cerimonial requirements, by people who set themselves up as judges of others in direct conflict of scripture. Kind of like a circle.

Funny that you use the same schtick that the good ole baptist use about women speaking in churches, "Well you just have to tear that one right out of the Bible".

I've heard it all before. The yokes on you.

Scooter I would for your sake and others that the "yoke" would be on me. But for it to be importain enought for our loving Savior to institute and quote; "this do in remembrance of me", "as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me", and "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me".

As much as I believe in Baptism and its importains, I know that one is not saved by the act of baptism, but having the opportunity and not taking it might jeopardize my salvation

Jesus had much to say about being faithful in all things.

Lu 16:10
He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

And so many more that give to the same thought. I like also Titus one and nine.

Tit 1:9
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

I"m not trying to butt heads with you but stand on the truth of God"s word.

[scooter]

Listen, it's not like I don't know what the Bible says, I do, it's not that I don't care what the Bible says, I do.

Here's the deal, the way we use and read the text is a bit different.

The Bible says "Go ye therefore, teach all nations" applying the way some people "read" the text, if we don't teach "ALL NATIONS" as a individual then we are not "doing" what the word says.

There is an understanding that goes with the text.

How many people, christians, have never baptized anyone, yet the scripture says "BAPTIZING THEM".

Do we declare them out of God's will and spout out "Well I guess we should just tear the great commission out of the Bible", no we apply understanding to the text that the message of the text is not an individualistic approach but rather everyone doing their part.
Adopting the letter without understanding is dead.

That's how we got off track in the first place.

[rough_rider]

[MacUser]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Titus 3:5-7 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 4:1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.



If we are doing ANYTHING to secure our salvation other than Believing as Abraham did we are offering God something he is not requesting.

[oletimer]

Scooter wrote

There is an understanding that goes with the text.

How many people, christians, have never baptized anyone, yet the scripture says "BAPTIZING THEM".

Scooter maybe this passage of verses might help to understand or shead more light to undersatand your thoughts. We each as an individual cannot do all the work and I know that God is not asking one to do all, but He is asking that we work in unity and in love.

Our friend Macuser one sided attemp to show that savation is not attained by works leaves only a one sided view and not the whole picture, as after attaining salvation that is more for a child of God to do. Part of that "go ye into all the world" doctrine, if you are going to take one side then you need to take other that goes with it.


We each have a work to do and that work should be a part of the whole plan of God.
1Co 3:5
¶ Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Co 3:8
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Co 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Do we declare them out of God's will and spout out "Well I guess we should just tear the great commission out of the Bible", no we apply understanding to the text that the message of the text is not an individualistic approach but rather everyone doing their part.
Adopting the letter without understanding is dead.

Do we declare them out of God's will and spout out "Well I guess we should just tear the great commission out of the Bible",

A clear case of twisting things to make you case seem pretain to your thoughts. No body on my part has said anything about not doing what God/Christ/Word has commanded us to do.

You don't do or think that it is not necessary certain things in the bible that have a "do" to go with it and think I'm twisted and off base. That don't add up even with a adding machine. Now thats something that I can't understand. By the way when we stand before God and I'm right, how will that leave you? If you are right then at least I've been faithful over the little things, hum.

rough_rider, if you think that is good posting then you will have convince that you wouldn't know good posting if it ran over with a mack truck. It just leaned over to your way of thinking.

What I'm trying to say is that I feel that we have to take the whole Word of God and not just what fits into our own little red wagon.

[scooter]

I understand how hard it must be to accept that legalism kills.

The pharisees thought they were right and persuaded many through scripture to their way of thinking. The "Church" made the same mistake.

Their assumptions turned to arrogance, that everyone who opposed them must have been of the devil, even Jesus.

We are not saved through religious acts.

Here's the deal, if you take communion more often than I but betray the meaning with an inability to win the lost, because you "know" what your doing, we will surely see.

If I take communion less than you but win souls with a greater understanding of the actual sacrifice we will see that also.

I'm not satisfied with a small circle of disfunctional "Church" people.

The countryside is littered with such groups.

I know I've hit a nerve whenever I roust the Tcoggers , just chalk it up to those young whippersnappers.

[Poimen]

I hear ya Scooter.

The issue here is not a coming to faith, or a growing in practice. The issue here, now, is (as I see it) neglecting to do what we know to do. The Lords; Supper, Communion, the Eucharist, Christian passover (or whatever other term this is for it) is essentially universally accepted as a Christ given ordinance of the church, to be observed by all believers universally.

If someone knows that, and neglects or refuses to participate, then there are some serious issues at work in their spiritual life. And if left unresolved I'd doubt the validity of their profession of faith.

Still, I just wanted to encourage people to join together, like the apostles and early church themselves, in keeping communion and on the Passover. Truly it has no greater emphasis, impact, or meaning than at this time of year -- though certainly is not void of meaning when held otherwise.

But yeah, the most important thing is to experience the liberation from sin Christ's sacrifice has provided. Without that the meal becomes meaningless ritual.

[rough_rider]

rough_rider, if you think that is good posting then you will have convince that you wouldn't know good posting if it ran over with a mack truck. It just leaned over to your way of thinking.

O'Timer, that was not very nice friend.

[oletimer]

rough_rider Posted:

oletimer wrote:
rough_rider, if you think that is good posting then you will have convince that you wouldn't know good posting if it ran over with a mack truck. It just leaned over to your way of thinking.

O'Timer, that was not very nice friend.

Yep I guess wasn't, but maybe if you don't take it that way it seem so bad. I think that I'm almost sorry, but not completly. Oh well we're both big boys.