Emotional Abuse and the Bible.

[Brian]

I know about christian socialism. That's where the "WWJD" came from, the YMCA and so on.

I'm not endorsing christian socialism. I saying that christians should stand up for social injustices. A good example is racism. MLK, Jr took a stand against racism while many of the churches took a back seat on the issue.

I was listening to Glenn Beck the other day. He said every great reformation has started with a preacher that stood up.

I pretty much agree stevenson. I don't support socialism in any form whatsoever though, christian or otherwise. I didn't know however, that Francis Bellamy (author of the United States' Pledge of Allegiance) was a socialist. I might have heard it at some point but forgot or it never stuck with me.

[dolfan]

I suppose I'm more or less not sold on the idea of "social justice", as in "is there actually such a thing at all?", not as in "Did Jesus come for that purpose?".

The reason I say so is because there is no such thing as real, true justice outside of the judgment of God. All else is inherently unjust or, to make up a word, "ajust" (being the absence of justice). I don't agree that anything that Jesus came to restore can be graded on the curve. If we allow that Jesus came to teach us, among other things, a duty of "social justice" we assume that there is a kind of justice that we can engage in independently of His direct sovereign sway, something that we are master of and are capable of performing without Him. We admit only that we do it poorly and that He provides us a model and power to do it better. That's uncomfortable for me to accept because it is dangerously close to a salvation-by-works theology on the one hand and because it relies on an ideal that is arrived at without sole reference to God.

On the latter of those two discomforts, it is all too often the case that we first define the injustice based on some notion that arises without tether to the way of Jesus. Redistribution of wealth, for example, is an idea that exists because of the "injustice" of unequal or particularly grave disparity of wealth. Even though rhetoric is used from the bible ("feed the hungry", "heal the sick", etc.) to persuade people there is a problem (when, in fact, almost no one believes there is no problem), the end of it is to accomplish something in the world that is not really reflected in any perfect sense in the realized kingdom of God. Put another way, we are shown no distributive justice model from scripture that is intended for social or civil governments to use. The only model provided is for the church (cf. Acts 4, 5 and Romans 12:1). That model is, indeed, tethered to Jesus and that we do not obey it is our own inescapable shame. But what it does not do is beg for a solution from a fallen world that has been retooled with imagery from the Bible to make it all .... Jesus-y.

Sooooo, if I accept this idea that "social justice" even exists, I have to buy with it an idolatrous bill of goods that I simply cannot afford. To extend that on to say that Jesus came for that 'thing' is, in my own way of thinking, a form of blasphemy.

Now, this represents a very, very gradual development of my own views. I once would have glommed on to the ideas of men like N.T. Wright and others who see our faith in the way I've described above. I just don't see it that way now. That others do see it that way does not mean I view them as blasphemers. I can only speak for myself.

[MacUser]

I think we're just gonna have to shake hands and disagree. But i will respond to some of your answers if I may?

Absolutely. But Jesus never came for Social Justice, Sorry. If you miss this Mondo Gospel point your journey/walk is going to be manipulated into doing things in the "Name of God" that He doesn't require of you. My comments are trying to save you lots of wasted time. Jesus came to reveal the Father, show his GOODNESS and restore that relationship.

I don't see where John the Baptist was offended or confused.

No? Read this one first..
4. Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:

Then Jesus demonstrated whom He was and what His purpose was to John's Disciples. Then verse 6 is a broad statement for everyone listening as a specific reply to John.

Matthew 11:6

King James Version
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

English Standard Version
And blessed is the one who is not offended by me.”

New American Standard Bible
"And blessed is he who does not take offense at Me."

International Standard Version
How blessed is anyone who is not offended by me!"


We are all going to be severely disappointed just as John was if we place Jesus as the head of the social justice redeemer club. He didn't come to do that during John's time and it's not for ours either.

He came to reveal to us whom Daddy was. Thank You Jesus!

[dalebert]

Mac...…I have very much enjoyed the words that you have spoken….it has caused me to think and read and see something that I have never seen before…..thanks brother….very provoking !

[MacUser]

Mac...…I have very much enjoyed the words that you have spoken….it has caused me to think and read and see something that I have never seen before…..thanks brother….very provoking !

Fantastic. Thanks. It's called the simple Gospel my friend. Paul called it veiled...

NIV: 2 Corinthians 4:4,6
4. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Identity Theft... is a terrible, absolutely terrible thing.

[stevenson]

I think there is some confusion in our words. Merely because it is hard to relate on a forum. As I sat here thinking about this subject, I Can't seem to draw a clear line between social injustice and christian socialism. Which I think is where we are not agreeing or not understanding each other.

Back in the late 1800's, Christian Socialism came about. That is when the YMCA was born, Salvation Army, and other groups that believed it was our duty and the will of God for us to take care of the poor, feed the hungry, etc.. . Although they mean very well, they came up short. They helped many with their physical needs but neglected their spiritual needs.

Jesus DID come to restore our relationship with the Father. And once that relationship is restored we should become "Christ-like". And Christ said to feed the hungry, take care of the widows and so forth. He also stood against social injustices of His day by merely talking to the woman at the well. This would be the equalvilant of a black man sitting in the same seat on a bus with a white man in the 1950's. Jesus also ate & drank with questionable people while here on earth. He was making a statement loud & clear to the religous folks of that day. That's why they cried out "crucify him".

[MacUser]

But again brother as I showed you clearly with John.. Jesus didn't come to correct social wrongs. He came to reveal the Father. That wasn't a side point but the main one.

Jesus said the Glory I have (which is the brightness of the Father).. I give to you. So we have it right now.. Do you know what that is? If we fail to understand what it is we have and are.. We will fall for any good speaker or social ideal that tickles our ears

[stevenson]

I don't know about that. The Father was revealed from the beggining of time. The Isrealites had seen many miracles and believed in God. Jesus came to made a way for us to have a relationship with the Father.

But He also came and taught about the kingdom and how we should live our lives by the kingdom agenda. Our you saying that social injustices live within the realm of the kingdom of God? Jesus prayed "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Are you saying that we are not here to advance the kingdom agenda?

Do we just ask Jesus into our heart and then turn a blind eye to the wrong that surrounds us? It seems like that is what your saying?

[MacUser]

First.. You never answered my question? What is Jesus' Glory? God gave it to him and he gave it to us. What is it?

I don't know about that. The Father was revealed from the beggining of time. The Isrealites had seen many miracles and believed in God. Jesus came to made a way for us to have a relationship with the Father.

Good.. Question... Then who is Jesus?

Do we just ask Jesus into our heart and then turn a blind eye to the wrong that surrounds us? It seems like that is what your saying?

Excellent again.. but first you must answer this core motivation question to get to your question. Did Jesus operate out of performance or paternity?

God Bless!

[stevenson]

Can you elaborate on your second question?

[Full Quiver]

Jesus didn't come to set governments as a whole straight but HE came to save that which was lost and therefore if those lost get saved and form governments then they can influence society and make social justice.

Christ dealt with individuals on a relationship basis. If said individuals come together then they can right wrongs.

[dolfan]

Jesus didn't come to set governments as a whole straight but HE came to save that which was lost and therefore if those lost get saved and form governments then they can influence society and make social justice.

FQ, if the saved form governments, why do it? The one government that the saved are called to form is the kingdom of God. The government of the world -- or, the kingdoms of this world as Revelation 11:15 describes them -- become the kingdom of God through a very unpleasant process of domination and destruction of the current order and not through a co-opting process or "influencing society" model. Revelation 11:14 describes it as a "woe" or "terror". Verse 18 has the 24 elders in that scene declaring that, when this ultimately occurs, "The nations were angry." Angry? At whom? Well, obviously, at the One from whom wrath had come because their next statement is "and your wrath has come." Then they say, "The time has come for judging the dead and for rewarding your servants .....".

Whatever influence Christians may have "on society", it is a destined and actual flop if we're measuring it in terms of "social justice" (which, as I said elsewhere, is even questionable if there is such a thing). It will never be otherwise because, by the nature of the kingdom of God, it is not part of the picture that the order of things in this world be improved and made somehow better, but that they die and what lives (that is, what is redeemed of God) through the fire be glorified. Nothing lives, though, of any government of which you and I are a part EXCEPT the kingdom of the world that is upon the shoulders of our Lord Jesus, and that kingdom is the only one that we are loyal to if we're really believers. It is the only one we have any business with. Everything around it is contrary to it and no matter what motivations may be expressed from within "society" (i.e., even if Christians say they want to improve the world with Jesus-like conduct) it is a subtle deceit that meets the same end as the most egregious sinful pagan ways. The one and only "motivation" acceptable is that as expressed in Romans 11:36 - 12:2, and that cannot be realized by "changing the world" or -- my personal favorite (not) -- "taking X back for Jesus". Jesus doesn't want it. He's already got plans to destroy what is and to redeem what's His. None of this.....stuff, none of this "government", none of this "society", none of it, make it through. He claims nothing of it, and when we attribute to Him our ideas to improve it, is is false worship and uninvited, unwelcome idolatry.

[MacUser]

Can you elaborate on your second question?

Sure. In response to your question.. I asked did Jesus ( our NC model ) operate His Ministry out of performance or paternity? What was Jesus' motivation?

Was He influenced into unnecessary action, fulfilling ideals of other... or did he behave as a confident son with a specific purpose from his father? This is key to grasp your question.


Also.. Remember.. What is Jesus' Glory? God gave it to Him and He gave it to us. What is it?


This is good stuff.

[stevenson]

Now I understand. I lost you for a moment, I apologize. I'll answer one by one.

did Jesus operate His Ministry out of performance or paternity?

Not sure what you mean here. So my question would be, what do you operate your ministry out of?

Was He influenced into unnecessary action, fulfilling ideals of other... or did he behave as a confident son with a specific purpose from his father?

Father, of course!

What is Jesus' Glory?

Glory was always a physical manifestation of God's miraculous presence. When Jesus turned the water into wine, the Bible says His glory was revealed. When the glory of God filled the temple, it was in the form of smoke. I wouldn't say God gave it to Jesus. Jesus being equal with the Father already had it.

[stevenson]

If you ever get a chance, you should read "Reclaiming the 7 Cultural Mountains".