I am grieved tonight

[Russell Roberts]

What will you do when someone mentions that Jesus drank wine?

Since I know you have them catalogued please list all the verses of scripture in which Jesus is recorded drinking wine.

Brother, you're killing me. You still haven't answered my question. You know as I do that there isn't one single verse in the Bible that says "Jesus drank wine." I think though that when Jesus said 'The Son of Man came eating and drinking" that he is providing the basis on which the Pharisees accused him of being a winebibber. He was clearly contrasting HIS ministry with that of John's who was a Nazirite. Despite their lifestyles, the Pharisees were bound to condemn both he and John.

I think we are on pretty solid ground to infer from his statment that he drank wine.

Beyond that, wine was used in the Passover meals. And yes, I am fully aware of Poimen's argument that the 'wine' really wasn't wine.

[Dr. Ron]

Let me tell you what I taught my kids....

I grew up in a family of alcoholics. My dad and his siblings were all drunks. My mother's side of the family had their share too.

It began with "a few beers" ......

I helped put my uncles and aunts and dad to bed drunk too many times. I promised God and myself that my children would never have to smell the stinch of "beer puke" . There is nothing worse than that.....or alcohol sweat.
I did teach my children and my church kids that wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging,,,

Now do I believe you will go to hell for drinking a beer? No. I don't. But, no one really needs to drink beer. It has consequences every time.....It is a "gateway" drink.

I don't teach it as a "legalistic " thing but rather a "consequence" thing. Just like all the other "sins of the body " have consequences....

I teach chocolat the same way....abuse it and pay the consequences....like me....100lbs over weight.

[Pastor Gary]

What will you do when someone mentions that Jesus drank wine?

Since I know you have them catalogued please list all the verses of scripture in which Jesus is recorded drinking wine.

Brother, you're killing me. You still haven't answered my question. You know as I do that there isn't one single verse in the Bible that says "Jesus drank wine." I think though that when Jesus said 'The Son of Man came eating and drinking" that he is providing the basis on which the Pharisees accused him of being a winebibber. He was clearly contrasting HIS ministry with that of John's who was a Nazirite. Despite their lifestyles, the Pharisees were bound to condemn both he and John.

I think we are on pretty solid ground to infer from his statment that he drank wine.

Beyond that, wine was used in the Passover meals. And yes, I am fully aware of Poimen's argument that the 'wine' really wasn't wine.

Poimen is, in my view, wrong about that. Wine is wine. I concede that Jesus used WINE in the Passover meal, and probably at a few other meals, as was common in that time and culture. You tossed out the "Jesus drank wine" line, and, when called to post references, came up with a couple of oblique references to back that assertion. I maintain that if Jesus walked the earth today, we'd be unlikely to find him hoisting a Heine.

You probably disagree, because the general sense of your posts causes me to infer not just tacit acceptance of alcohol consumption, but a desire to convert those who have strong sociological aversions to drinking and caution against it.

[Russell Roberts]

Brother Gary,

You said:

...the general sense of your posts causes me to infer not just tacit acceptance of alcohol consumption, but a desire to convert those who have strong sociological aversions to drinking and caution against it.

Brother, I realize the strategery behind casting ones opponent beyond the pale in a debate..provide the audience with a charicature of his position. This is what you have done.

The only 'converting' I'm trying to do is to convert people to a scriptural position where it concerns moderate alcohol consumption. This would include NOT condemning those who have sensitivities different from our own. I haven't encouraged a single person to consume any sort of alcoholic beverage if it violates their conscience. I urge them not to. It would be sinful for me and for them.

What I advocate is teaching the precepts taught in Romans 14 which includes not judging a weaker brother or judging a 'strong' brother.

[Russell Roberts]

Doc said:

I teach chocolat the same way....abuse it and pay the consequences....like me....100lbs over weight.

THAT, sir, is priceless.

[Pastor Gary]

Brother, I realize the strategery behind casting ones opponent beyond the pale in a debate..provide the audience with a charicature of his position. This is what you have done.

You give me far, far too much credit.

I am not skilled enough at debate and clever enough to even figure out how to do what you are suggesting. Too funny.

[Faith rider]

I see the same thing happening, not only in those that were raised in the church, but as a educator, I see it often around the middle and high schools in our small town, these kids are members of other local churches in our community. I've been seeking God for answers, and to be honest, I haven't found any. Is it a sign of the time?
Lord, we need divine intervention.

[Russell Roberts]

Brother, I realize the strategery behind casting ones opponent beyond the pale in a debate..provide the audience with a charicature of his position. This is what you have done.

You give me far, far too much credit.

I am not skilled enough at debate and clever enough to even figure out how to do what you are suggesting. Too funny.

I doubt it. You brother, are sharp as a tack and twice as sticky. Fine as the hair on a frogs butt split four ways and sanded.

I presume that this discussion has gotten old and stale and that you are probably tired of discussing it. Brother, I have no doubt in my mind that you love those youth from the bottom of your heart and I think you are probably one of the finest Christians there is.

I will leave you with this thought so as not to beat this dead horse any longer. I am not promoting the use of alcohol. I am promoting sound biblical doctrine which includes NOT condemning those who moderately consume alcohol. There are many verses in scripture that warn of the dangers of the abuse of alcohol. There are others that speak of the appropriate use of alcohol. If we limit our teaching to those scriptures that warn of alcohol abuse, I think we do our students a dis-service.

Sometimes it takes a lot of courage to take an unpopular position, especially when our teaching will meet with disapproval or tradition or if it conflicts with our personal biases. But this is why we need the boldness that the Holy Spirit gives. The Apostles weren't preaching a popular message but the Holy Spirit enabled them to openly proclaim it.

You may honestly disagree with my position. But I urge you to evaluate my teaching from scripture and not from personal bias based on your experience. If we continue to disagree, that's ok by me brother. I'm going to love you either way. More than that, we are one in Christ. All I'm trying to do is to promote a view that I believe is more in line with scripture and which avoids a gnostic view of God's good creation. You and I both teach which makes us more accountable than others.

But I've said enough. I love you Pastor Gary.

[Brian]

What I advocate is teaching the precepts taught in Romans 14 which includes not judging a weaker brother or judging a 'strong' brother.

But like you pointed out, Romans 14 is sort of a double edge sword if you will. If you read through the verses it starts by telling the strong to not despise the weak. I don't mean to beat the horse anymore but you were in fact the first one off the jump to slander Pastor Gary for his position leaning toward abstenance and the dangers involved in the club scene. Even if you concider his position a position of weakness you are scripturally forbidden from despising his weakness. (I am merely using "weakness" as a point of reference, not an observation of anyone in particular.)

I'm sure it is a pet peeve of yours in the way Pentecostalism has enslaved the liberty of the rest of the church. I don't like it either brother. But your strength in the freedom that comes in Christ should be governed by wisdom inputed by the Holy Spirit and not led by the desire to "prove" that there is liberty.

There is also great freedom and liberty in the choice to abstain from the strong drink and the party scene lifestyle.

[pastorables]

There is also great freedom and liberty in the choice to abstain from the strong drink and the party scene lifestyle.

Romans 13:13 Let's behave decently, as people who live in the light of day. No wild parties, drunkenness, sexual immorality, promiscuity, quarreling, or jealousy!

Let's just behave people!

pa

[Russell Roberts]

What I advocate is teaching the precepts taught in Romans 14 which includes not judging a weaker brother or judging a 'strong' brother.

But like you pointed out, Romans 14 is sort of a double edge sword if you will. If you read through the verses it starts by telling the strong to not despise the weak. I don't mean to beat the horse anymore but you were in fact the first one off the jump to slander Pastor Gary for his position leaning toward abstenance and the dangers involved in the club scene. Even if you concider his position a position of weakness you are scripturally forbidden from despising his weakness. (I am merely using "weakness" as a point of reference, not an observation of anyone in particular.)

I'm sure it is a pet peeve of yours in the way Pentecostalism has enslaved the liberty of the rest of the church. I don't like it either brother. But your strength in the freedom that comes in Christ should be governed by wisdom inputed by the Holy Spirit and not led by the desire to "prove" that there is liberty.

There is also great freedom and liberty in the choice to abstain from the strong drink and the party scene lifestyle.

Brian, my criticism is not of anyone who chooses to abstain and that was not my criticism of Pastor Gary. My criticism is of classifying as 'sinful' behavior that is not condemned in scripture. I am well familiar with the admonition not to despise those who choose to abtstain. It is the other edge of the sword that is almost always ignored.

It doesn't seem to be a problem for those who drink in moderation to not despise the 'weak'. What DOES seem to be the problem is that those who choose to abstain don't hesitate to condemn the 'strong'. Heck, it's easy to condemn somebody.

What is hard is standing up against popular opinion in favor of staying true to scripture, especially when tradition is opposed to scripture.

[Full Quiver]

I teach chocolat the same way....abuse it and pay the consequences....like me....100lbs over weight.
_________________

Put the blame where it belongs doc; on the peanut butter, not the chocolate!

[Pastor Gary]

My criticism is of classifying as 'sinful' behavior that is not condemned in scripture.

First, that's not at all what I did.
Second, are only the things specifically enumerated in scripture as "sin" harmful or disadvantageous?

I think the other pertinent part of the passage often cited says "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive." (1 Corinthians 10:23 NIV)

I like the Message transliteration: "Looking at it one way, you could say, "Anything goes. Because of God's immense generosity and grace, we don't have to dissect and scrutinize every action to see if it will pass muster." But the point is not to just get by. We want to live well, but our foremost efforts should be to help others live well."

I am not now, nor have I ever been, arguing that the consumption of alcohol is, in and of itself, sinful. My argument has been, and continues to be, it is not very wise, it often leads to great woe, has huge societal costs, and can be a gateway to other behaviors and activities that are sinful. Permissible? Sure seems so. Constructive? I fail to see how.

[Russell Roberts]

Ok brother, but the question I posed earlier was why would you use the word 'justify' to characterize a persons scriptural argument permitting moderate alcohol consumption. While it might not always be 'constructive' neither are a lot of things. But they shouldn't be condemned on that basis. Is having sex with my wife constructive? Not in any way that I can figure. But hey, it's fun AND permissible. LOL

A blanket condemnation or positing that something is not wise simply because it is not 'constructive' misleads people into believing that certain things are simply wrong. How then, can you teach youth not to judge those with other convictions? How can you teach Romans 14 in a current context while issuing a blanket condemnation on the basis that 'it's not constructive'?

You could use that argument against almost anything that was fun that held the possibility of abuse. Is eating raw oysters constructive? Is coloring your hair purple constructive?

The possibility of abusing God's gifts doesn't negate the fact that they are actually gifts.

P.S. If anyone can find something constructive about eating bacon please let me know...I'm trying to 'justify' it.

[pastorables]

All I'm trying to do is to promote a view that I believe is more in line with scripture and which avoids a gnostic view of God's good creation.

You bring up gnosticism quite often. I wonder, my friend, if you have ever heard of moral relativism?

It seems to me the greater danger in the modern day church is the latter.

God bless,
pa