Strange coincidence or Ordered steps?

[Pastor Don]

Jessica

To respond to your question of giving Bible for the freedom of choice: let me begin with Genesis
1:26 when God said: “Let us make man in our image.” Certainly God has freedom of choice and we are made in that image therefore giving us freedom of choice as well. But lets not stop there. On over in Genesis 3 we are told that the serpent beguiled Eve and she did eat of the of the fruit. Again she had been told by God not to eat of it, satan beguiles (or convinces) her that eating of the fruit would be good. She is given the freedom to make such a decision, secondly she is given the freedom to actually make the choice to eat of the fruit and she did. She gave the fruit to Adam who was with her and he made the choice to eat of the fruit as well.

Next let’s move ahead to Joshua 24 during the course of event that the people were worshiping baal and Joshua came against such evil. Stating in verse 15 Choose this day whom thou will serve. Al throughout the scriptures we are shown time and time again where the people were given a choice and they chose to worship other God’s bringing upon themselves the judgment of God. Later on Joshua would make a declarative statement: “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” His choice.

God often gave direct orders to the children of Israel which some chose to follow and others rejected. God was more than merciful and gave them opportunity to repent.

That brings us to the next thought. Repentance. The definition of the word tells us that we are given a choice. To make a decision to turn from evil and follow Jesus. Proverbs 3:31 tells us “Envy not the oppressor and choose none of his ways.”

While I agree with you that the Word says God has chosen us; I must understand that as He house has chosen man-kind and then man-kind must also choose Him.

The Apostle Paul after meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus had to make a choice. God had chosen him; however Paul could have rejected and never have gone to Cornelius’s home.

John 3:16 Whosoever believeth in Him, also denotes a choice to either believe or reject.

On April the 16th 1989 I was in a service and the Holy Ghost spoke directly to my heart and beckoned me to come unto Him. I made a choice that night to follow Christ with my life. I chose Him because He chose me. I loved Him because He first loved me. But it was still my choice if I would receive Him or not.

God bless...

[Gerald Creasy]

Gerald;
Let me say first that the comments concerning what I believe to be truth being asinine (for clarification sake these words are a synonym to asinine: silly, stupid, foolish, unintelligent, idiotic, and dim. So which are you insinuating that I am, just one or all of them?) is to say the least insulting. While I applaud your quest for correct theology and doctrine you are a bit hypocritical in your approach. You demand from others absolute perfection according to YOUR understanding while you have been called upon time and time again to refrain from you condescending and judgmental attitude. Yet you refuse to listen to anyone; but you. I understand that you are going to treat people with the same uncaring and unloving way in which you were treated; however, that too is against Biblical reasoning. In fact Christ says that if we are cursed and even despitefully used that we are to meet that with blessing and thereby bring honor and glory unto God. If our enemy thirst we are to give him drink and if hungry we are to feed him. Nowhere in the scripture are we told to treat others AS others have treated us. And I suspect you will blow off this council as well because none of us heathen preachers here on Jude 2 can teach you anything.

As for “defense” of my asinine belief. It is far from saying “poor God look how the devil is bullying Him around.” Let’s take an example from life on a personal level. If I feel impressed of the Lord to give a “bum” $20.00 bucks for food for his children then I have been obedient and that is good. If that “bum” takes the $20.00 and buys booze and drugs then obviously that is not what I gave it to him for but he took what I intended for good and used it for his purpose. Did I get bullied…NOT at all. Nor does God become bullied because satan uses what power God has given him to try to discredit God. That is what the power of darkness is all about is casting doubt upon God and attempting to thwart His plan, but we know that he cannot be successful.

I do not believe that you can refute the fact that the devil takes what God has intended for good and misrepresents it for His own purpose. God is not being bullied and neither is His children for that matter; unless of course they choose to allow themselves to be bullied. God on the other hand cannot be bullied.

God bless...

My treatmeant of people and their idiotic ideas is illrelevant.

What matters is not what you have gained from personal experience or what we can come up with to try to excuse God when people are hurting but what scripture says.

The Bible says "The Lord has his way in the whirlwind"

It says nothing about Satan having his way UNLESS it is permitted (as in the case of Job).

YOUR Satan is strengthened by your reasoning and lack of scriptural justification.

And your God is weakend. Your God is bumbling: He controls Hurricanes but dosent intend any coast destruction with them.


How can that Be Biblical?


Like the preacher who preached that God has NOTHING to do with a persons death despite the dozens of scriptures that says he does, PEOPLE are seeking a God that dosent offend or laugh at the calamity sinful man incurs upon himself.
They draw conclusions from their subjective concept of what is Absolute Good (God didnt intend for a hurricane to destroy coastline), rather than what scripture ACTUALLY SAYS about God.

[one love]

Why do ministers continue to herald the Gospel?

Because we are commanded to preach it, because the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for those that are being saved. How will they know unless they hear.

For those of you who believe that God gave us free will please give some scripture to support that belief. If any one had free will it was Adam. He lost it when he disobeyed. As a result, no one has free will, we all are born into sin, all have fallen short of God's glory. I didn't have a choice in that.

I also didn't chose to follow Christ, he chose me and appointed me to fruit, fruit that will last. Outside of being "born again" I was a slave to sin, I had only one choice, to serve sin. How is that free will?

When God began calling me, he showed me my sin and my deadness next to His offer of grace and mercy, His offer for life compared to my deadness was an irresistible offer, I had no choice but to accept His free gift, he made me want it. The only thing I wanted before that was to serve sin, that is the only choice that we have outside of being "born again".

Free will- do you have the option to serve God and repent or are your predestined to heaven or hell? If you feel there is no free will then you would have to assume you may not have a chance to go to heaven. Granted I know since you repented you must have been one of the chosen but that would mean many you witness to God has already deemed them to hell.
Knowing that you can witness to someone and THEY have the choice right then and there to repent, That is free will.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

if you choose to believe you have the option to be saved. Hope that helps and I realize I am keeping this very simplistic for a reason. I have not read the other post yet.

Yet I would not believe that God directs one to watch porn, do drugs, murder etc. that is free will.



[b]DON great post BTW great reading, I hope you are feeling better!



FQ- wrote:

Speaking of abortion, according to the mentioned line of thought we Christians should not be against abortion because if we are then we come against the WILL of God. That is just sickening. Sure God has used the tragedy of countless abortions to get a hold on some people who then will become submissive to His Will but God would be far more pleased if no more babies had to die.

Very good point as well, one of the many things I have never understood about this doctrine. Great point indeed!

[one love]

here is a rather elusive scripture that im sure most people have never heard of......

john 3:16 clearly identifies the choice of free will, that anyone can obtain this everlasting life, if they CHOOSE to.

Here is one YOU are ignorant of:


1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So which is it Jammy?

Is it by your choice?

Or is it by the Holy Ghost?

Gerald once the spirit convicts one has the "Choice to repent" he does not convict and force them to serve him. He does not force you nor I, if he did then we would have to assume that he chooses for us to fail and backslide from time to time. The minister that gets caught with a prostitute was that God doing this or him failing and giving into temptation?

If I misunderstood please clarify as I am trying to understand you clearly,

thank you Brother

(How is you back doing now? )

[Full Quiver]

Again, I do not believe God to be weak because Satan does one thing or another. Satan is a defeated foe! God proves HIS majesty, sovereignty, power, and control by sometimes doing nothing at all.

[Pastor Don]

Gerald;
Once again you attribute something to me that is NOT mine. satan Does NOT belong to me nor I too him.

Your arrogance is only irrelevant to you But just like others that cannot be convinced they are wrong you fall into that category as well. You are the only one in the world that has it right and all the rest of us, except those chosen few you have deemed as reliable, well we just out here flapping our gum's.

Believe it or not I do have a great deal of respect for you. I do admire you for your stand; however, your arrogance and high mindedness is a repellent. It was bad enough when you call my beliefs asinine but when you go as far to attribute satan as belonging to me and insinuate that I give more power to satan than God it is far beyond insulting but offensive. In doing so you have questioned my christian character.

But again I am quite certain that you will not even give this a consideration. So you go right on and offend. But you will not continue to insult me. Until you are ready to be civil at least with me, I will not continue to have any dialog with you. Others on here may be willing to overlook your belittling ways but personally I am tired of it. You will not run me off of the board like you have others I will not give you the satisfaction.

God bless....

[jessea]

The bible says, all have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory…

Paul described it this way in Romans 7:18 “For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.”

Paul writes this in Romans 3:10-11, “as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 No one understands, no one seeks for God.”

Again he states in Romans 5:12 “Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned…”

Because of the fall in the Garden of Eden, man is sinful and because of his sin, he is "separated from God" according to Isaiah 59:1-2 which says “Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God;”

Listen to what God speaks to His people through Jeremiah the prophet in Jeremiah 13:23, “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.”

Paul confirms this in Romans 8:6-8 which says, “The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.”

We did not have the will to call on God, some people think that they found God…they believe that because that is the lie that is perpetuated by many preachers in churches all across America…

To think you had a role in your redemption or salvation opens the door for the lie that says you have to do something to maintain it. The truth is, dead people cannot desire what is good.

Pastor Don said he loved God because God first loved him, he chose God because God first chose him. What if God hadn't chose you, would you still choose Him, what if God hadn't loved you first, would you still love him?
I believe you wouldn't have, more specifically you couldn't have. Dead people can't choose life, dead people cannot choose good, they are slaves to sin and death.

Every true believer said yes to God because God first replaced their heart of stone with a heart of flesh. This was God's own doing.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 God says: “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules”.

[Gerald Creasy]

Gerald;
Once again you attribute something to me that is NOT mine. satan Does NOT belong to me nor I too him.

Your arrogance is only irrelevant to you But just like others that cannot be convinced they are wrong you fall into that category as well. You are the only one in the world that has it right and all the rest of us, except those chosen few you have deemed as reliable, well we just out here flapping our gum's.

Believe it or not I do have a great deal of respect for you. I do admire you for your stand; however, your arrogance and high mindedness is a repellent. It was bad enough when you call my beliefs asinine but when you go as far to attribute satan as belonging to me and insinuate that I give more power to satan than God it is far beyond insulting but offensive. In doing so you have questioned my christian character.

But again I am quite certain that you will not even give this a consideration. So you go right on and offend. But you will not continue to insult me. Until you are ready to be civil at least with me, I will not continue to have any dialog with you. Others on here may be willing to overlook your belittling ways but personally I am tired of it. You will not run me off of the board like you have others I will not give you the satisfaction.

God bless....

No I consider it fully.

It is not my intent to run ANYONE Off the board, but if one is so weak they can not defend their belief that is their problem, not mine.

How will they react if confronted by a non-believer?

If a person claims to speak for God and contradicts the Word of God THEY HAVE MADE THEMSELVES a target.

No longer will I sit....hearing a man preach while rembembering several scriptures which plainly contradict.

[Pastor Don]

Jessica;
Nowhere have I even suggested that man was anything but born into sin. The scripture you present is absolutely correct, the only thing is that it has nothing to do with the will of man. Yes we are born into sin. But by virtue of being a human being...a creation of God we are chosen. Your theology suggest that there are those who are alive and have no hope of salvation. I don't see that anywhere in scripture. Yes we are all born into sin, but each of us has an opportunity to hear the gospel and be convicted of the sin we are in and there by receive or reject that gift. There is nothing I can do to earn salvation, but I do have a choice to accept or reject it. I chose to accept the gift Christ has given because I see in Him the hope that my soul longs for.

As for the "lie" that you speak of..."Once saved always saved". It is far from being a lie. The Word clearly states "26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"

I cannot understand how that anyone can think that if a man accepts Christ as Savior and Lord and then goes back into the world of sin and makes a mockery of the death of Christ on the cross that it will simply be overlooked. Shall we continue in sin, The Apostle Paul says God forbid.

Again nowhere do I refute the fallen state of man, nowhere do I even suggest that we have anything to do with our having salvation offered to us. But it is my choice if I accept the gift or not.

Thank you for your honest and respectful dialogue. I know we disagree but I do feel we have a mutual respect for each other.


God bless....

[Pastor Don]

Gerald;
I will begin by asking forgiveness, I said I would not continue in a dialogue with you; however, I feel compelled.

You continue your "spiritual" bullying. I have offered scripture and feel that I am rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Every statement I have made has been backed by scripture. If you do not see the Word the same as I do, so be it. It gives you no right to belittle, berate, and call into question my spiritual character.

I will refute the fact that you have considered what I have said to you. If you had an ounce of consideration you would recognize that a brother in the Lord has come to you honest-hearted and openly told you that I am offended by your condescending, rude, and judgmental comments. However, you continue to do so and don't even have enough respect for anyone else's opinions that you will as much as acknowledge it. But that is seemingly ok because you are not to be called into question, but you are the sole person to hold everyone else accountable...I think not.

It is always someone else's problem in your book. They are weak, they can't defend, they have a problem...not me. The truth is you are offensive in your treatment of fellow Christians. You say all you are doing is holding others accountable for their misinterpretation of scripture, yet when you are called on your direct disregard for offensive behavior...you simply blame it on the individual you have offend "because they are weak"...I am far from being weak, I have no trouble confronting a non-believer, nor do I have a problem confronting a self-righteous bully who accepts no responsibility for wrongs they commit.

Nowhere have I contradicted the Word of God. I do not deny the scriptures you have given, God is in the Whirlwind, He created it, He put it in order. It is satan that causes disorder. I have never weakened God the Father nor will I.

I fully believe that God used one form of interaction with man in the Old Testament, He exacted His Judgment upon people, cities, nations, and kingdoms then and there because the New Testament Order had not yet been put in place by the coming of Christ. Under the New Testament God has chosen to withhold His Judgment until Judgment Day when every man will answer for his own life...yes even for every idle word.

Under New Testament Grace, I do NOT believe that God exacts "revenge" through storms, and or "natural" disasters. They are a consequence of fallen man but not intended for judgment. As for Him laughing at fallen man and His sinful state no I do not accept that... With the coming of Christ came the compassion of God. Jesus looked upon the people and saw them as sheep without a shepherd. And He wept. Full of compassion and grace.

God bless...

[oletimer]

jessea


The bible says, all have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory…

Paul described it this way in Romans 7:18 “For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.”

Paul writes this in Romans 3:10-11, “as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 No one understands, no one seeks for God.”

Again he states in Romans 5:12 “Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned…”

Because of the fall in the Garden of Eden, man is sinful and because of his sin, he is "separated from God" according to Isaiah 59:1-2 which says “Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God;”

Listen to what God speaks to His people through Jeremiah the prophet in Jeremiah 13:23, “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.”

Paul confirms this in Romans 8:6-8 which says, “The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.”

We did not have the will to call on God, some people think that they found God…they believe that because that is the lie that is perpetuated by many preachers in churches all across America…

To think you had a role in your redemption or salvation opens the door for the lie that says you have to do something to maintain it. The truth is, dead people cannot desire what is good.

Pastor Don said he loved God because God first loved him, he chose God because God first chose him. What if God hadn't chose you, would you still choose Him, what if God hadn't loved you first, would you still love him?
I believe you wouldn't have, more specifically you couldn't have. Dead people can't choose life, dead people cannot choose good, they are slaves to sin and death.

Every true believer said yes to God because God first replaced their heart of stone with a heart of flesh. This was God's own doing.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 God says: “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules”.

Paul described it this way in Romans 7:18 “For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.”

First I haven found what translation you are using and this makes it harder to understand were you are coming from, at best presdestinarian. At worst a bad translation of God's word, both in mind and in book.

Paul was talking about how that as a sinner he was under the control of sin. It was sin that had control of him. The decussion was related back to the call by some to be circumcised to be saved. Verse 19 says: Ro 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Because he was under the strength of sin, then he obey sin. In chapter 8 verse 1 he tell us that is in Christ, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Ro 8:1
¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The "who walk" speaks of one doing it, God doesn't twist nobody's arm.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul writes this in Romans 3:10-11, “as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 No one understands, no one seeks for God.”

"The quotation in Ro 3:10-12, is from Ps 14:1-3, and from Ps 53:1-3" Barnes. Also in his word

(Barnes)
Verse 10. As it is written. The apostle is reasoning with Jews; and he proceeds to show, from their own Scriptures, that what he had affirmed was true. The point to be proved was, that the Jews, in the matter of justification, had no advantage or preference over the Gentiles; that the Jew had failed to keep the law which had been given him, as the Gentile had failed to keep the law which had been given him; and that both therefore were equally dependent on the mercy of God, incapable of being justified and saved by their works.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We did not have the will to call on God, some people think that they found God…they believe that because that is the lie that is perpetuated by many preachers in churches all across America…

To think you had a role in your redemption or salvation opens the door for the lie that says you have to do something to maintain it. The truth is, dead people cannot desire what is good.

It appears that you have never heard of Abraham and his (faith relationship) with God. It is this same faith relationship that alouds for the Blood to be applied.
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ro 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

I want to add what James said to back up whole thought that we have a part in this process, not that we are able to save our self, God forbid that we think that, but that our faith in Christ as the Son of the Living God is what brings us to the saving grace of God. Read the second chapter of James.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We did not have the will to call on God, some people think that they found God…they believe that because that is the lie that is perpetuated by many preachers in churches all across America…

And who lied to you to believe that man can't call on God?

Ac 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:12
¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Ro 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.Ro 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

jessea, somebody has been teaching you from a loaded deck. Never met a child of God that had had their arm twisted to recieve Christ in their lives. They asked for salvation or they didn't recieve it.

If we didn't have a chose in the matter then Christ's trip to Calvery was fruitless. We've would have to take out John 3:16, then again some translation may have already.

More may come later, but this has got way toooo long for posting.

[Jamais Vu]

here is a rather elusive scripture that im sure most people have never heard of......

john 3:16 clearly identifies the choice of free will, that anyone can obtain this everlasting life, if they CHOOSE to.

Here is one YOU are ignorant of:


1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So which is it Jammy?

Is it by your choice?

Or is it by the Holy Ghost?

i dont see any contradiction between the two scriptures. it is my choice to serve Jesus. it is only through the convicting power of the Holy Ghost that i come to the alter to ask God to forgive me and follow him. even a child can understand this.

why do people who believe that every single person who is going to make it to heaven is already predestined get on message boards to share their thoughts, when it really doesnt matter , according to their logic?? seems like a huge waste of time to try and convince people to see things your way, since hey even if we are all wrong, our fate is already decided for us, right? why even exchange thoughts and ideas, since it doesnt matter how right or wrong you or anyone can be......if you are going to heaven, it is already decided so you just have to cross your fingers and hope you are one of the "chosen ones"....right??

[Jamais Vu]

I also didn't chose to follow Christ, he chose me and appointed me to fruit, fruit that will last. Outside of being "born again" I was a slave to sin, I had only one choice, to serve sin. How is that free will?

so you dont think salvation is offered to everyone? if salvation is offered to everyone, than there IS a choice.....

if salvation is only offered to those whom are "chosen" than how can you tell who is chosen and who is not? is there a special lottery ticket handed out and only a certain number of lucky people get to go to heaven?

[Full Quiver]

if salvation is only offered to those whom are "chosen" than how can you tell who is chosen and who is not? is there a special lottery ticket handed out and only a certain number of lucky people get to go to heaven?

I've had many a discussion with a guy that holds to this belief and that's one question he cannot answer. How do you know who is predestined? How does one determine who is chosen and who is not?

[pastorables]

why do people who believe that every single person who is going to make it to heaven is already predestined get on message boards to share their thoughts, when it really doesnt matter , according to their logic?? seems like a huge waste of time to try and convince people to see things your way, since hey even if we are all wrong, our fate is already decided for us, right? why even exchange thoughts and ideas, since it doesnt matter how right or wrong you or anyone can be......if you are going to heaven, it is already decided so you just have to cross your fingers and hope you are one of the "chosen ones"....right??

The message of predestination is one of confusion to those who are earnestly seeking God. The Bible clearly states that "God is not the author of confusion".

When I was a teenager, God would attempt to deal with my wayward spiritual condition at various times. As His voice would speak to me about eternity and making my election sure, another voice would come encouraging me not to worry about it for God already knows if you will be saved or not (referring to myself). The second voice would persuade me not to consider my wayward condition citing God's omniscience in the matter. I would normally just shrug off the conviction, as I casually accepted the twisting of the scripture by the evil spirit.

Sidebar - this is the point where someone could possibly respond that my experience means nothing since there is no verbatim example in the Bible.

I believe that the "body of Christ" is predestined to win. I do not believe the scripture supports the idea that individual Christians are predestined in the same relationship.

One shouldn't look any further than Hebrews, chapters 3 and 4, to find that we have been offered some latitude and autonomy concerning our relationship to God.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

(Reference)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

See the following quote concerning predestination:

Hyper-Calvinism is a pejorative term for a theological position that denies that the call of the gospel to repent and believe is universal - that is, for every person. Hyper-Calvinism also asserts that since a person who is not influenced by the Holy Spirit does not have the ability to believe in Christ, he therefore does not have a duty to repent and believe in Christ for salvation.

Hyper-Calvinism historically arose from within the Calvinist tradition among the early English Particular Baptists in the mid 1700s. It can be seen in the teachings of men like Joseph Hussey (d. 1726), John Skepp (d. 1721), Lewis Wayman (d. 1764), John Brine (d. 1765), and to some extent in John Gill (d. 1771). It became widespread among the English Particular Baptists of that day, though Particular Baptists disagreed with the extremes of Wayman, Skepp, and Brine.

While this position has always been a minority view, it may still be found in some small denominations and church communities today.