new BDP position paper

[Full Quiver]

Danny, I closed this discussion with you. You are way too religious for me. You give the answers that tend to make you look good with no introspection or transparency.
_________________

Gary, you assume much. I am neither religious nor do I often speak in tongues. Occasionally yes, mostly in private, but I have in service with many folks there including unbelievers BUT ALWAYS it was the Spirit's prompting and not of or in myself. I wouldn't see the point in such a thing. What is the point of babbling? I ask because without God that's all folks do anyhow.

If you think I am not being transparent then ask those around me. I challenge you to ask Dr. Ron, my wife, A2Jgirl, or even CantBCoy how many times they have seen me speak in tongues.

[pastorables]

sound scriptural exegesis in the light of practical down to earth experience.

Shouldn't that be revised to say, "practical down to earth experience in the light of sound scriptural exegesis"?

Not trying to split hairs, but the wording in this case is extremely important as the only light with authority is the light of God's Word, not our experience.

Otherwise, I would be happy to see a few minor adjustments to the final Statement before the International Assembly.

pa

[Full Quiver]

Not trying to split hairs, but the wording in this case is extremely important as the only light with authority is the light of God's Word, not our experience.

Nice to hear you say that Pastor Ables.

[Pastor Gary]

Danny, I closed this discussion with you. You are way too religious for me. You give the answers that tend to make you look good with no introspection or transparency.
_________________

Gary, you assume much. I am neither religious nor do I often speak in tongues. Occasionally yes, mostly in private, but I have in service with many folks there including unbelievers BUT ALWAYS it was the Spirit's prompting and not of or in myself. I wouldn't see the point in such a thing. What is the point of babbling? I ask because without God that's all folks do anyhow.

If you think I am not being transparent then ask those around me. I challenge you to ask Dr. Ron, my wife, A2Jgirl, or even CantBCoy how many times they have seen me speak in tongues.

That was not a general judgement of you, Danny, but a specific reference to this thread. My direct question, which was pretty much a "yes" or "no" kind of question, was...

"Ever been to Christian concert or Billy Graham-type event? Even though the Spirit was obviously present, did you let out a Pentecostal whoop and speak in tongues real loud, or did you understand that such a manifestation would be off-putting and not appropriate at that time?"

You either have, or you have not. It was not a trick question, or a gotcha, but instead of just saying, "Nope. Never happened to me." or "Yeah, okay, I can see that point." you gave me a syfog answer:

"The Spirit knows just when the appropriate time is and if HE sees fit then HE will use a willing vessel. I only need be willing not looking for an opportunity. Are you saying that it is we who make the decision as to the when and the appropriateness?" Sounds great, but sidesteps the question.

[Full Quiver]

I've never been to a Billy Graham crusade but I'd bet my paycheck someone spoke in tongues at one of his events.

[Pastor Gary]

I've never been to a Billy Graham crusade but I'd bet my paycheck someone spoke in tongues at one of his events.

Okay.

[pastorables]

Not trying to split hairs, but the wording in this case is extremely important as the only light with authority is the light of God's Word, not our experience.

Nice to hear you say that Pastor Ables.

I've believed that for a long time, my friend. Some just enjoy modifying my thoughts and/or nitpicking my posts for their own good pleasure.

[Full Quiver]

Such as devil cats; yep that's positively in the Word right after holy doves.

[dolfan]

I was slightly critical earlier on this document, and everyone pretty much knows my personal understanding on tongues, etc. And, there are many assumptions and views underlying the document that I'd take issue about. That's all an academic argument and probably unfruitful since they haven't asked my opinion. But, I did re-read it and I want to point out some things that are positive about it --- although it requires a little different reading than the one intended by the authors, I'm sure.

1. "Spirit-filled believers make up the largest and fastest-growing segment of reformation Christianity in the world." Now, I don't know precisely where that comes from statistically, and I supposed I'd differ with them on the definition of a "Spirit-filled believer", but I am enamored with the notion of "large" and "fast-growing" "reformation Christianity". I hope that, whatever they are in terms of pentecostalism (and, let them be as Pentecostal as the BDP encourages for all I care), these people who meet what the BDP committee is defining turn out to be a force for truly and literally turning the world upside down.

2. The acknowledgement of Western drift from following the Holy Spirit. Again, they probably intend something different than I think of when I read that statement, but it is a true one nonetheless. Reform by really following Christ would not only challenge but maybe even eviscerate Western values, and I say that as a life-long and presently ardent Western values kind of guy. Nothing about transformation is going to be nicey-nice to any of us or our preferences for the world. For me, Acts 2 is the chapter that opens a door on what this looks like, but it has nothing to do with the tongues part (vss. 42-47).

3. "Be filled" is not optional. For any believer. I don't know how these authors would treat someone like myself; maybe they think I'm not a believer at all since I don't see "being filled" in the sense they are advocating in this context of manifestations, etc. But, the truth is still there in the recognition that being Spirit-filled is no option for a believer. When I couple that with what they said about reformation and drift, I take away from it a really relevant advice to walk humbly with God and to do something affirmative to serve Him and others, to expand His kingdom. Even if they'd disagree with me on how I'm interpreting their statement.

[dawgs10]

sound scriptural exegesis in the light of practical down to earth experience.

Shouldn't that be revised to say, "practical down to earth experience in the light of sound scriptural exegesis"?

Not trying to split hairs, but the wording in this case is extremely important as the only light with authority is the light of God's Word, not our experience.

Otherwise, I would be happy to see a few minor adjustments to the final Statement before the International Assembly.

pa

thats fine but you have to take both in the end. unless you use down to earth spirit filled direction in services and worship, we can recite what we believe all day long and it would not matter. the spirit must be allowed to move in our worship however God sees fit.

[pastorables]

Such as devil cats; yep that's positively in the Word right after holy doves.

I assume this is TIC, but if you're looking to debate again... I'm ready!

Let's assume that the Bible never shared an account of a Christian falling into a trance, and I shared an experience of such. Would you believe it?

My point? The Bible is full of spiritual experiences, similar to our own today, that just happen to be recorded (other experiences are not recorded). Many of them likely wouldn't be accepted if not included in the scripture, and often are not accepted anyway. A spiritual experience is not necessarily invalidated by not being listed as X, Y, and Z in the Bible.

I personally believe that the Bible backs up demon shape shifting (Revelation 16:13) and the like, but every man to his own. I also believe the hundreds of testimonies of the saints of old who performed strange acts under the power of God and/or witnessed other worldly events that can't necessarily be expressly proven in the scripture.

The scripture is clear as has been stated repetitively that Jesus did many things not included in the scripture (John 21:25). I choose to believe that God happenings and various other spiritual anomalies can be realized outside the parameters of the written Word.

Blessings,
pa

[EagerBeaver]

@PA--

I don't want to sound like I'm attacking your beliefs but in my opinion anything in Revelation has to be taken with the knowledge this was a vision given to John, of the future -- what will happen when Christ comes back.

Other than that, there is no scriptural evidence of a real-time event of a demon changing shapes. Not to say it can't happen, but it's not in the Word save for a vision of the future, i.e. something that has not taken place yet.

[pastorables]

@PA--

I don't want to sound like I'm attacking your beliefs but in my opinion anything in Revelation has to be taken with the knowledge this was a vision given to John, of the future -- what will happen when Christ comes back.

Other than that, there is no scriptural evidence of a real-time event of a demon changing shapes. Not to say it can't happen, but it's not in the Word save for a vision of the future, i.e. something that has not taken place yet.

I don't take it as an attack, but please consider that something being a future prophecy doesn't change it's validity. The prophecies concerning the first coming of Christ were future events to the Old Testament saints. I stand by my interpretation as stated based upon this knowledge, as well as the fact that the Bible doesn't have to validate all spiritual miracles and/or manifestations (see former post).

Nevertheless, allow me take you a little deeper into this subject matter. The magicians of Pharaoh turned their staffs into serpents. Is that not shape-shifting? Moses did the same with his staff and God's serpent swallowed the serpents of the magicians. You guys need to open your eyes to the fact that Satan has power and can do much more than most people desire to accept.

Exodus 7:11-12
11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

Yes, I believe the demon/black cat testimony to be true, especially in light of the account of staffs being turned into serpents. If we can accept that magician's have power to turn real-time inanimate objects into living things, certainly we should have no problem accepting that the same concept can apply to a demon manifesting in various forms?

Many testimonies of demonic manifestation have been shared with me through the years. I believe most of them to be true, mostly because I know those who labor with me.

Blessings,
pa