Jude 2

There used to be these big banners at the General Assembly that said "On to perfection!" and when preachers would sit and gripe over coffee, they would joke that they were "perfecting the church."

So in the spirit of "perfecting the church" let me ask:
Jude2 was born in the passion of revolutionary change; it was a place where people could come and voice the frustrations they had always felt, but feared to express. Many of the issues debated here were the same ones battled on the assembly floor.

What are the next big issues? (Or have we settled all the biggies that plagued us, and now it's a big yawn?)

Do message boards like this have any influence, directly or indirectly, upon institutional change? (In other words, do you "credit" (or blame) Jude2 with being part of the change process?

If I might link this to my earlier questions about globalization: how will the rise of non-western, non-American, non-Caucasian dominance impact our future Assembly business?

Pastor Gary wrote:What are the next big issues? (Or have we settled all the biggies that plagued us, and now it's a big yawn?)

I wonder sometimes if we don't thrive on conflict and debate. Does it push us further and we need it or are we just difficult. LOL!

We have yet to reach the gay debate... not many gays are beating the church doors down. Also.. I think the drinking issue isn't dead yet. I think we will hear more and more about churches being more independent.

Pastor Gary wrote:Do message boards like this have any influence, directly or indirectly, upon institutional change? (In other words, do you "credit" (or blame) Jude2 with being part of the change process?

They most certainly do. Jude2 has more than likely helped people feel that they are not alone and give them more of a platform to speak out and have the nerve.

Ilovebigcats wrote: I wonder sometimes if we don't thrive on conflict and debate. Does it push us further and we need it or are we just difficult. LOL!

A teacher I respect once said the church is supposed to fight, it was made to fight, and one way or another, it will. If we are not engaged in fighting the world, the flesh & the devil, we will fight with each other.
So, conflict is okay, it's just a question of between us and who else, that's all...

Pastor Gary wrote:There used to be these big banners at the General Assembly that said "On to perfection!" and when preachers would sit and gripe over coffee, they would joke that they were "perfecting the church."

So in the spirit of "perfecting the church" let me ask:
Jude2 was born in the passion of revolutionary change; it was a place where people could come and voice the frustrations they had always felt, but feared to express. Many of the issues debated here were the same ones battled on the assembly floor.

What are the next big issues? (Or have we settled all the biggies that plagued us, and now it's a big yawn?)

Do message boards like this have any influence, directly or indirectly, upon institutional change? (In other words, do you "credit" (or blame) Jude2 with being part of the change process?

If I might link this to my earlier questions about globalization: how will the rise of non-western, non-American, non-Caucasian dominance impact our future Assembly business?

You recently posted a link to Christianity Today in which two Pentecostal Problems were discussed ONE being Word OF Faith and the other being Anti-intellectuallism about which was said "There's a danger of heresy really having a field day."

When one uses any other criteria other than the Word Of God to establish accepted teaching, Heresy WILL have a field day.

What is used to establish what is acceptable in the case of Popular Pentecostal Ministers?

Bloated incomes, big churches, Flashy excitment stirring preaching (which is labled annointed regardless of what is preached), therefore "great men of God" today prophesy falsely, directly contradict plain Scripture even to the point of saying Jesus wasn't God, and deny the trinity. AND THEY're voted the most influential Christians.

Closer to home, recently a Jude 2 poster of prominence in world ministry posted a work of E. W. Kenyon as influential to him. Even though the occultic origins of Kenyons teachings have been well documented in the Doctorial Thesis of D R McConnell at ORU (published under the title "A Different Gospel") and even the Dictionary Of Pentecostalism states that his teaching is rooted more in metaphyysics and occult, and can even be traced back to one mans attempt to restate witchcraft in scientific terms. (Kenneth Hagin plagarized Kenyons work by reams)

Did anyone ask him how these occultic teachings affect his ministry? His version of teachings he preaches to the masses?

But SUCH is the Face of Pentecostalism today.

Is it all a YAWN? If so the seduction of Pentecostalism is all but complete.

JESUS is NOW the password to Heavens Bank account. He was wounded for our transactions, bruised for out equities, the chastisement of our piece was upon him and by his stripes we're well heeled.
Jesus is no longer God, he's Mamons nappy headed fetch it boy.

Does Jude 2 challenge these issues?
Does Jude 2 accept these issues?

I see enough to keep me fighting but, even as you have said Pastor Gary "I'd hate to have you in my congregation"

First of all... GERALD! Welcome back to the active posters world.

Gerald Creasy wrote:I see enough to keep me fighting but, even as you have said Pastor Gary "I'd hate to have you in my congregation"

Actually, Gerald, if I said that, I retract it -- here in front of God and everybody. I think I'd very much like to have you in my congregation. Having a take-no-prisoners, no-tolerance-for-nonsense presence keps it real and keeps it honest.

Welcome home.

Pastor Gary wrote:What are the next big issues?

Do message boards like this have any influence, directly or indirectly, upon institutional change?

If I might link this to my earlier questions about globalization: how will the rise of non-western, non-American, non-Caucasian dominance impact our future Assembly business?

Next big issue.
Doctrinally Sanctification
Financially Distribution of Tithes

May be more ...

I do believe message boards did/and will have influence on change.
( I can remember back in the early 90's considering subscribing to the Cleveland Banner to find out what was going on at hq's etc. A message board would have been gladly accepted. )

Not sure about Assembley Business. We have come a long long way and still a long way to go.

I believe the next subject on the floor is sanctification. Why? It should be.

Too many people have preached the view of "if you have the will to sin then you arent sanctified" and I feel that they confused our youth. I might be easy for one to confuse "will to" and temptation.

I don't know.

JustJay wrote:Too many people have preached the view of "if you have the will to sin then you arent sanctified" and I feel that they confused our youth. I might be easy for one to confuse "will to" and temptation.

I don't know.

I can tell you that teaching kept me in yo-yo mode for my teen-age and young 20's years... my thinking was that "they tell me if I am sanctified it removes the desire to sin... but now and then I really desire to sin (especially with her) so I must not be sanctified... and if I am trying this hard and can't get the sanctification stuff right, what's the use??"

I, personally, explain that sanctification, being set apart for the use of the Lord, removes the compulsion to sin. Compulsion... the irresistible urge, the force beyond your ability to resist. Not the desire, not the temptation, but the compulsion.

Pastor Gary wrote:Actually, Gerald, if I said that, I retract it -- here in front of God and everybody. I think I'd very much like to have you in my congregation. Having a take-no-prisoners, no-tolerance-for-nonsense presence keps it real and keeps it honest.

Welcome home.

No apologies necessary, I realize I can be overbearing at times.

Pastor Gary

I, personally, explain that sanctification, being set apart for the use of the Lord, removes the compulsion to sin. Compulsion... the irresistible urge, the force beyond your ability to resist. Not the desire, not the temptation, but the compulsion.

This is the best explanation that I've heard. Thanks.

Pastor Gary wrote:

JustJay wrote:Too many people have preached the view of "if you have the will to sin then you arent sanctified" and I feel that they confused our youth. I might be easy for one to confuse "will to" and temptation.

I don't know.

I can tell you that teaching kept me in yo-yo mode for my teen-age and young 20's years... my thinking was that "they tell me if I am sanctified it removes the desire to sin... but now and then I really desire to sin (especially with her) so I must not be sanctified... and if I am trying this hard and can't get the sanctification stuff right, what's the use??"

I, personally, explain that sanctification, being set apart for the use of the Lord, removes the compulsion to sin. Compulsion... the irresistible urge, the force beyond your ability to resist. Not the desire, not the temptation, but the compulsion.

I dont want to make this a doctrine issue in this post ...but.....i have always wonder how anyone could tell that after they were saved , how they would testified to being"sanctified"? Saved i can understand, being filled with the Holy Ghost i can understand, but i never could see that sanctification was that "second work of grace"! What kind of evidence proved one was sanctified before they could recieved the "Holy Ghost"?

I never liked the way sanctification was explained in my time.

Sanctification was an experience that really cleaned you up to be holy enough to receive the Holy Ghost.

Which made me wonder what that Jesus fella was doing when he came into my heart, slumming?

Apparantly, at salvation I was holy enough for only One part of the Trinity, the other part's standards are a bit higher.

I've never seen it that way either, but more of a progressive growth in Christ, on the other hand, I do know that for many there comes a turning point where your attitude changes looking more to ministering to others than being blessed yourself, and that to me is a crucial turning point, but more is a change in our attitude than a Holy cleansing the way it's been often explained, not to mention I have known even a few pastors that haven't gotten that unselfish ministry attitude yet.

dalebert wrote:I dont want to make this a doctrine issue in this post ...but...

I started a post in the Doctrine forum a while back that didn't get much action at the time. Feel free to resurrect it:

Holiness/Sanctification

Pastor Gary wrote:What are the next big issues? (Or have we settled all the biggies that plagued us, and now it's a big yawn?)

If I might link this to my earlier questions about globalization: how will the rise of non-western, non-American, non-Caucasian dominance impact our future Assembly business?

Sanctification doctrine would be my pick as well, or more accurately Holiness doctrine (every Christian denom teaches sanctification, it's our Holiness doctrines that are distinctive and under challenge/in need of clarification).

I'd say, though, that that's just part of the primary challenge cogop faces: identity. The fights of the last decade have been about what we are not, or perhaps what we are no longer. The struggle ahead may be more difficult: So who and what are we?