Jude 2

You may have witnessed a glimmer about how I feel about certain Prominent Pentecostal Ministers.

Presently, I attend a congregation which has a Pastor I admire very much.

And yet.

TD Jakes is held as an example: Just think, one of these children could grow up to be the next T D Jakes!

And Jakes Books are used as Group Studies.

When Hinn blows in, a Bus is chartered and the Congregation is herded.



As an Objector, HOW should I handle this?

Write a letter to the Pastor? Warn members individually? Ask to speak before the congregation, light a candle and say my prayers?

For starters here is a video you could show them if they are really hung up on Benny.

http://www.godtube.com/view_video?viewk ... 39c3bda435


Or this one:

http://www.godtube.com/view_video?viewk ... 878267439c

Gerald Creasy wrote:You may have witnessed a glimmer about how I feel about certain Prominent Pentecostal Ministers.

Presently, I attend a congregation which has a Pastor I admire very much.

And yet.

Is he stupid? Gullible? A bad judge of character? Lacking in discernment? To what do you attribute the "And yet..." since you admire him?

Gerald Creasy wrote:TD Jakes is held as an example: Just think, one of these children could grow up to be the next T D Jakes!

And Jakes Books are used as Group Studies.

When Hinn blows in, a Bus is chartered and the Congregation is herded.

As an Objector, HOW should I handle this?

Write a letter to the Pastor? Warn members individually? Ask to speak before the congregation, light a candle and say my prayers?

I have been in almost the identical situation, Gerald: Served under a Senior Pastor who was into Hinn, Howard-Brown, and anything else that seemed exciting and attracted a crowd of granola (nuts and flakes) to our church, but he was a friend, totally sincere, and one of the finest men I know. We agreed to disagree, I prayed for his enlightenment (while he prayed for me to get free in the Spirit) and he clearly knew my views and never pushed me to participate in things that would violate my personal beliefs. I never openly contradicted him or tried to turn people against him - it was not my place, when he was Senior Pastor, and he wasn't teaching anything that would send people to hell.

Mister Ed wrote:For starters here is a video you could show them if they are really hung up on Benny.

http://www.godtube.com/view_video?viewk ... 39c3bda435


Or this one:

http://www.godtube.com/view_video?viewk ... 878267439c

Dude, Where have you been?

All that just shows how "great the power of God" is on him.

Pastor Gary wrote:I have been in almost the identical situation, Gerald: Served under a Senior Pastor who was into Hinn, Howard-Brown, and anything else that seemed exciting and attracted a crowd of granola (nuts and flakes) to our church, but he was a friend, totally sincere, and one of the finest men I know. We agreed to disagree, I prayed for his enlightenment (while he prayed for me to get free in the Spirit) and he clearly knew my views and never pushed me to participate in things that would violate my personal beliefs. I never openly contradicted him or tried to turn people against him - it was not my place, when he was Senior Pastor, and he wasn't teaching anything that would send people to hell.

Okay, let me ask you this: How did preaching that the ressurection had already occured send anyone to hell?

Yet Paul went ape over it.

How did seperating from the Gentiles and sticking with the Jews threaten to send anyone to hell?

Yet Paul was all up on Peter for his action.

In other words is the only thing that is used to determine WHAT IS and WHAT IS not worth MAKING A STINK over the factor of whether it will send someone to hell or not??

In our pluralistic society is syncretism and flaccid standards qualities we desire in the Church World?

Gerald Creasy wrote:Okay, let me ask you this: How did preaching that the ressurection had already occured send anyone to hell?

Yet Paul went ape over it.

Gerald -- I say this in all gentleness -- you are not the Apostle to the Gentiles. If you were chosen by God to lead and correct all the ills of the pentecostal church, going ape would be your prerogative. It is one thing to have strongly held views (so do I) and another to think that the entire world should take some particular action based upon them.

You should have an open, cordial, but honesty talk with your Pastor about your concerns and feelings. At the very least having it out and on the table will make it easier for both of you work with.

See if you guys can hold this in tension. Express you desire to want to speak and share some of your feelings in these studies, without being particularly divisive about it of course. Seek a channel for outlet and acceptance.

If that doesn't work then you have two choices...

1. Make your case to the higher ups.

2. Find another church and pastor.


Have you ever considered writing and submitting articles on such subjects to area publications, church papers, etc.?

Pastor Gary wrote:Gerald -- I say this in all gentleness -- you are not the Apostle to the Gentiles. If you were chosen by God to lead and correct all the ills of the pentecostal church, going ape would be your prerogative. It is one thing to have strongly held views (so do I) and another to think that the entire world should take some particular action based upon them.

You know you just abandoned ANY ability to correct ANYONE on ANYTHING in the Bible?

In other words your statement flies FULL IN THE FACE of 2 Timothy 3:16 which (in order to justify your statement) you must state as follows: ONY IF YOU ARE CHOSEN BY GOD is All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Is ALL SCRIPTURE given for reproof, correction and instruction to EVERYONE?

You just said that it wasnt, so I want to be clear.

Gerald Creasy wrote:You know you just abandoned ANY ability to correct ANYONE on ANYTHING in the Bible?

No. You are wrong. I called into question whether YOU are the one and only one set in the church to correct everything. It seems the focus of your existence to define yourself by what you are against. Since the COGOP spent almost a century in that same mode, I guess we have seen the futility of that course of action.

The best way to combat error is to model truth and let people see the difference. You have a potentially planet-wide forum here to proclaim your frustration with the preachers of error, a far bigger pulpit than the floor of any Assembly. Go for it.

Pastor Gary wrote:No. You are wrong. I called into question whether YOU are the one and only one set in the church to correct everything.

1) I never claimed I was the only one
2) I never claimed I was trying to correct EVERYTHING
3) Modern Pentecostals ability to accept God no matter how he is defined
Is ONE issue, NOT EVERYTHING.

Pastor Gary wrote: It seems the focus of your existence to define yourself by what you are against. Since the COGOP spent almost a century in that same mode, I guess we have seen the futility of that course of action.

The focus of my existence is to get people to care and stand up for BASIC BIBLE BELIEFS, instead of excusing Error with "can't we all get along" sophistry and feel good "we all worship Jesus" (no mater how he is defined)

The COGOPS mode was directed towards the error of exclusivism,
which is NOT synonymous to a MODE of Fealty to Basic Bible Beliefs.

There is a logical falicy in your "mode" statemend, because a mode is similar does not mean that both have error.

Pastor Gary wrote:The best way to combat error is to model truth and let people see the difference. You have a potentially planet-wide forum here to proclaim your frustration with the preachers of error, a far bigger pulpit than the floor of any Assembly. Go for it.

I am.
I shall.

Will you purpose to hinder me?

Gerald Creasy wrote:Will you purpose to hinder me?

Never have, that I recall. I have just been engaging in discussion with you. I actually agree with your complaints about various visible "leaders" -- I just prefer to wield whatever influence or voice I might have in less confrontational ways... but I am not trying to silence you.

You are a discussion board operator's dream, Gerald... you stir passions, draw fire, and get people involved.

My .02 cents is to approach those you think are in error with a spirit of love and kindness. Pray for them. Let them know you have genuine concern for their souls and are driven by that and not the passion to be theologically vindicated. It is hard to correct those you don't have a loving relationship with, especially if you don't hold any position of authority over them.

I was thinking you could volunteer to drive the bus.

You say that you "admire" the pastor BUT it seems as if you question the core of his leadership ability.

That by design removes you from following him or being unified with him, so much for admiration.

If you learned servanthood you could learn to lead people out of such error.

I see the problem as being you taking to the extreme on things.

I have always liked TD Jakes. I found his presentation interesting. I have never been to one of his meetings or heard one of his sermons in its entirety. He is not a blip on my radar as he does not impact my actual enviroment.

If he has erred, from proper understanding of God, I'll pray for him.

I have heard before that his understanding, oneness, is why he has not been asked to our assembly.

I don't see him as a false prophet as much as I see him off in his basic understanding of the God head.

I find a lot of the Tinity verses Oneness arguments to be childish and based in semantics. I know you see it different.

I would too fault the oneness people if they reproached the diety of Christ and the Holy Ghost. Or if they equated God's moving in inanimate objects as equal manifestations as Christ, though Christ is all in all.

There is an old saying "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care".

The OT style only goes so far in NT times. You could understand all mysteries yet in your delivery be void of impact.

Learn how to follow and serve perhaps God will exhalt your understanding in season.

Until then if you volunteer to drive the bus over to Benny's you can have a captive audience on the way back!

scooter wrote:I was thinking you could volunteer to drive the bus.

You say that you "admire" the pastor BUT it seems as if you question the core of his leadership ability.

That by design removes you from following him or being unified with him, so much for admiration.

Flummery!

What flavor KoolAid do you prefer?

I once, in person, heard a man tell that he went to a Popular (at the time) service, there were lots of people there and the preacher was popular. the Pastor said something that contradicted scripture AND the man never went back. A short time later that Pastor and his flock were breeding grounds for maggots in Guyanna.

MINDLESS devotion is NOT required in scripture and is ONLY demanded by the Pastor who is insecure. It flies in the face of Acts 17:11 where comparing teaching to scripture is called "noble".

Notice DEVOTION no matter what the error IS NOT called noble, but comparing teaching to scripture.

scooter wrote:If you learned servanthood you could learn to lead people out of such error.

My servanthood is to Jesus Christ. Which is why I decry so firecely when idiots say he wasnt GOD or define him ANY OTHER way than what scripture defines.

scooter wrote:I see the problem as being you taking to the extreme on things.

There is something inately broken about a reason that says a person who decrys error is more extreme than the error itself.

In all the history of Jude 2 you have stood against me and buffeted me for my "methods" and never once said "I would confront someone who preached [insert idiocy here] as well."

Am I as extreme as how you rail preach against sin?

scooter wrote:I have always liked TD Jakes. I found his presentation interesting.

And for a Pentecostal, that's all it takes for it to be truth and anyone who stands against their feelings is extreme.

scooter wrote: I have never been to one of his meetings or heard one of his sermons in its entirety. He is not a blip on my radar as he does not impact my actual enviroment.

If he has erred, from proper understanding of God, I'll pray for him.

So you refute the methods of NT Paul as well, when he refers to those who preach the ressurrection has already occured?

scooter wrote:I have heard before that his understanding, oneness, is why he has not been asked to our assembly.

I don't see him as a false prophet as much as I see him off in his basic understanding of the God head.

I find a lot of the Tinity verses Oneness arguments to be childish and based in semantics. I know you see it different.

Childish.

So I guess the Assembly of God's condemnation and expulsion of the Jesus Onlies in the early 1900s was childish as well.

scooter wrote:I would too fault the oneness people if they reproached the diety of Christ and the Holy Ghost. Or if they equated God's moving in inanimate objects as equal manifestations as Christ, though Christ is all in all.

So you are engaging in childishness, too?

scooter wrote:There is an old saying "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care".

So you think I don't care about this?

I'm not trying hard enough.

scooter wrote:The OT style only goes so far in NT times. You could understand all mysteries yet in your delivery be void of impact.

Yes I know. Reason and devotion to scripture is alien to the modern day world. It is more important to feel good about things and be nicer than our New testament examples.

scooter wrote:Until then if you volunteer to drive the bus over to Benny's you can have a captive audience on the way back!

The Bus would never get there.

Too bad there is no church of Gerald in Christ.

You asked, "what should I do?"

Do you not know what should you do?? Or did you just want to argue as normal.

You have a general disrespect for humanity. That kind of leaves you to yourself. You have ZERO respect for any authority. That's more than just not following the Jim Jones of the world. It is a serious but all too common defiecency in the Body of Christ, today. It is more of a problem than any TV evangelist, in the world.

If you were involved you might know, but you would rather play Gerald know best. Tell the truth, you could father better than your father, mother better than your mother, pastor better than your pastor, oversee better than your overseer, you are simply one amazing individual.

You can iterpret scripture better than Assembly committee, establish doctrine and discern false doctrine and prophets better than all of us combined. I am in awe.

Equating your pastor to Jim Jones is only the evidence that you live in a different wotld than most of the rest of us.

I wish you could come down to the level of men on lower spiritual estate than yourself.

Was Saul Davids king?

I would respond to your drawing post but find as usual you don't come here in hopes to find your remedy but rather for others to be wowed by your standing up for Christ against all the world.

You say your a servant of Christ. Where is the love?

You say you are a servant of Christ. Where is your humility? Gentleness? Meekness? Longsuffering?

Perhaps you should yourself return to the basic principles of the scripture and a right relationship with God, first cleaning the junk out of your own trunk before becoming the self appointed savior of the deep doctrines of God.

If your presentation lacks the basic truths of Christ how then is it to be accepted as "profound" by anyone other than your mirror.

How many souls have you won to the kingdom of your God with your wisdom?

Oh I forgot it's the rest of our faults that you don't.

You asked, "what should I do?"

I told you.

If a part of us here chooses to practice the scripture of letting others do their own thing in ministry, let them stand or fall to their own master why is that so foriegn to you?

I don't follow TV preaching, don't find it much other for the most part other than about money. I can't see, but it is possible that it is your calling in life to thwart the efforts of Benny Hinn, and his ilk.

I think you have bitten the bait of preoccupied critical ministry rather than serving beside the rest of us.