Jude 2

This is interesting. Willow Creek has done an in-depth study of the quality of spiritual results of their ministries, and has acknowledged that their method of programmatic ministry has not necessarily been effective in creating spiritually mature Christians. Their vision had been heavily influenced by the methods of secular business, (which, I'm sure came out of a sincere desire to promote excellence, but which IMHO is a wrong starting place for how to conduct ministry. Vision and direction in ministry should come from the LORD and begin with the foundations He has already left us, not begin from scratch
with a plan that has come from man's thinking.)

We served in ministry at a church with many programs, and I have to concur that these did not always help the participants to grow into more spiritually productive Christians. I do admire Willow Creek's open and honest inventory and will pray for them as they "take out a clean sheet of paper and rethink our old assumptions."

Hybels confesses:

We made a mistake. What we should have done when people crossed the line of faith and become Christians, we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become ‘self feeders.’ We should have gotten people, taught people, how to read their bible between service, how to do the spiritual practices much more aggressively on their own.

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2007/10/willow_creek_re.html

This was already in a thread, at the moment 18 posts below yours.

I'm sorry! I didn't see that!

Jennifer Smith wrote:I do admire Willow Creek's open and honest inventory and will pray for them as they "take out a clean sheet of paper and rethink our old assumptions."

I join you in that, while anticipating that the haters will just be saying "See! I told you so!"

Jennifer Smith wrote:...we should have started telling people and teaching people that they have to take responsibility to become ‘self feeders.’ We should have gotten people, taught people, how to read their bible between service, how to do the spiritual practices much more aggressively on their own.

I like Hybels, and always felt his heart was right, even when I questioned this method or that program. Any church that could produce a leader like Don Cousins, who I know and respect, is doing something right. His advice you quoted is worth repeating to us all.

Pastor Gary- it seems like only those who disagree with your point of view are "haters" or "gossips", since I never see such labels applied to those who constantly personally attack certain ministers on your forum.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

pastorsam wrote:Pastor Gary- it seems like only those who disagree with your point of view are "haters" or "gossips", since I never see such labels applied to those who constantly personally attack certain ministers on your forum.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

Sam, if you are referring to me, I apologize most sincerely for causing you offense to you and everyone else who has come under my criticism and sharp togue...er, keyboard, and I undertake to be more positive and less flippant when I post, whether I disagre or agree with what is being discussed. Please forgive me.

Mike Vande wrote:
Sam, if you are referring to me, I apologize most sincerely for causing you offense to you and everyone else who has come under my criticism and sharp togue...er, keyboard, and I undertake to be more positive and less flippant when I post, whether I disagre or agree with what is being discussed. Please forgive me.

Who are you and what have you done with Mike Vande?

DaJudge wrote:

Mike Vande wrote:
Sam, if you are referring to me, I apologize most sincerely for causing you offense to you and everyone else who has come under my criticism and sharp togue...er, keyboard, and I undertake to be more positive and less flippant when I post, whether I disagre or agree with what is being discussed. Please forgive me.

Who are you and what have you done with Mike Vande?

What, you don't like the new me?

Just saying that maybe you should change your avatar to Barney (and not Fife)

MrDanger wrote:Just saying that maybe you should change your avatar to Barney (and not Fife)

And change your quote to "Koom-ba-ya"

DaJudge wrote:

MrDanger wrote:Just saying that maybe you should change your avatar to Barney (and not Fife)

And change your quote to "Koom-ba-ya"

See the thread labeled "The New Me". Maybe you guys should take some Vyvance...

Mike Vande wrote:
See the thread labeled "The New Me". Maybe you guys should take some Vyvance...

Response: Hey Gerald!

Mike is it a crime for you to share? Sharing is Christ-like.

scooter wrote:

Mike Vande wrote:
See the thread labeled "The New Me". Maybe you guys should take some Vyvance...

Response: Hey Gerald!

Mike is it a crime for you to share? Sharing is Christ-like.

Well, I wouldn't want to become known as the Pusherman of Jude 2

Mike Vande wrote:

DaJudge wrote:

MrDanger wrote:Just saying that maybe you should change your avatar to Barney (and not Fife)

And change your quote to "Koom-ba-ya"

See the thread labeled "The New Me". Maybe you guys should take some Vyvance...

Nope, don't need the meds. Listen. I have been working over time trying to be aggravating, annoying, and even on some occasions argumentative to pick up the slack for Gerald's absence and your new attitude. Gerald is back. You are just nice now (unless this is an evil ploy on your behalf). I guess I will go back to being a nice guy because everything seems right in the Jude 2 World again. EagerBeaver, please accept this huge hug from TN. I love you man. I am sorry I annoyed you. Thank you for who you are and being smart enough to point out how we don't know football.

MrDanger wrote: I guess I will go back to being a nice guy because everything seems right in the Jude 2 World again. EagerBeaver, please accept this huge hug from TN. I love you man. I am sorry I annoyed you. Thank you for who you are and being smart enough to point out how we don't know football.

(sitting around a bonfire with the J2 crowd)


"It only takes a spark, to get a fire going
That's how it is with Gods love, once you experience it..."