Jude 2

I ask the question how relevant is this to you. I understand some get in the flesh and can cause many problems. But do you still feel this is bible and an important part of the church?

one love wrote:I ask the question how relevant is this to you. I understand some get in the flesh and can cause many problems. But do you still feel this is bible and an important part of the church?

You have asked several questions...

"How relevant is this to you?"

Ehhh... When God really has a message to communicate to his people through an interpreted message, it is very relevant. A church that has a "message" and "interpretation" every service that tells them how special and wonderful they are, it is not too relevant to me.

Do you still feel this is bible?

Sure. But it is such a minor part of what Christianity is -- even what Pentecostalism is supposed to be -- that I wonder why certain groups have majored on M&I to the exclusion of other Holy Spirit manifestations and Holy Spirit fruits.

...an important part of the church?

Honestly, I would have to say not so much, because the abuse so far outweighs the genuine it is difficult to make decisions based upon M&I.

If an M&I doesnt line up with scripture it is MOST irrelevant.

I don't care how saintly and blessed old Brother Rufus is, if it contradicts scripture it's as valuable as the ravings of a drunkard.

Gerald Creasy wrote:If an M&I doesnt line up with scripture it is MOST irrelevant.

I don't care how saintly and blessed old Brother Rufus is, if it contradicts scripture it's as valuable as the ravings of a drunkard.

This is why I brought this up. I agree totally. The problem is that I feel we are hesitant with M&I now because so many walk in the FLESH and give these messages to back there agenda. Now I believe in M&I and feel it is very important and a wonderful thing when it is GOD. We need all the Lord has for us and all the gifts provided through the Holy ghost. Yet I am always bothered when I hear someone give a message and INT. with no spirit behind it and has no biblical standing.
I once heard someone give a intepretation that said "you have heard im coming back the time is NOW" it was an evil feeling not a wonderful spirit filled presence. I also know of some who have given out int. telling someone to stop taking medicine they did and almost died.

The answer to this is having true discernment.

I will follow with this thought and question. Can the devil get in a M&I when the LORD is moving then someone gets in the FLESH and a m&i is given?

The whole idea behind the usage of M&I for years was that the church felt that this was the "approval" of God on man's plans...or something to that effect.

We would have conventions, assemblies, business meetings and the like and hope that a M&I would put "approval" on what we were proposing.

It followed then that this would become a standard for the church no matter what the issues were. We began to expect M&I to take the place of the other spiritual gifts that are available. We would not accept a "word of knowledge" but insisted that we must have a M&I for "approval" and later...for correction...direction....prophecy....

While the gifts of the spirit are very real, they should not be used without discretion...and then judged according to ICor. 14. If they are judged to be valid, let them stand...if they are judged invalid based on the word...then let them be rebuked and the person giving them be held accountable.

My biggest issue with all these gifts is the lack of accountability. I judge every word given in my church by the "word" and I act accordingly...amazingly when people know they are going to be held accountable, most of the "flesh" stuff stops miraculously!!!!

Do I still believe in all the gifts????? YESSSSSSSSSSS!!!! I just don't trust a lot of people with them.....

Dr. Ron wrote:The whole idea behind the usage of M&I for years was that the church felt that this was the "approval" of God on man's plans...or something to that effect.

We would have conventions, assemblies, business meetings and the like and hope that a M&I would put "approval" on what we were proposing.

It followed then that this would become a standard for the church no matter what the issues were. We began to expect M&I to take the place of the other spiritual gifts that are available. We would not accept a "word of knowledge" but insisted that we must have a M&I for "approval" and later...for correction...direction....prophecy....

While the gifts of the spirit are very real, they should not be used without discretion...and then judged according to ICor. 14. If they are judged to be valid, let them stand...if they are judged invalid based on the word...then let them be rebuked and the person giving them be held accountable.

My biggest issue with all these gifts is the lack of accountability. I judge every word given in my church by the "word" and I act accordingly...amazingly when people know they are going to be held accountable, most of the "flesh" stuff stops miraculously!!!!

Do I still believe in all the gifts????? YESSSSSSSSSSS!!!! I just don't trust a lot of people with them.....

A big hearty THANK YOU! You rock!

going to nearly ditto PG, but here goes...

one love wrote:I ask the question how relevant is this to you.

it is very relevant if it is real, and not emotionalism and always ear-tickeling.

I understand some get in the flesh and can cause many problems.

some? it has been a long time since I felt that M&I has come forth in a church I have attended and felt that it wasn't anything more than an emotional response to a praise and worship service and prayer (I have never heard one after or in a message preached). Yes, there are "some" that get in teh flesh, but something anathema in my mind is the "spare-tool" (super spiritual, said in deep south accent, pun intended) folk that want to follow the "first one" with their own, and try to "outdo" each other - especially when there is no one to interpret. this is something Paul was very specific about in teaching that it should NOT happen.

I won't get into it here, but it is my firm belief that the person who speaks the tongues message is then primarily responsible for the interpretation (especially when there is no "known" person with a gift of interpretation).

But do you still feel this is bible and an important part of the church?

it can be. I do not believe it must be. it is a gifting, not a prerequisite. I would rather be without M&I than all the emotional-babble that has no "real" interpretation that I have otherwise seen so much of in some churches.

Further, I believe that M&I should be "Bible". I do not believe in any "revelations" coming from M&I. I believe that all "revelations" have come already. I do believe that there may be illumination. and that this illumination should be absolutely canon-Bible founded.

I would rather be without M&I than all the emotional-babble that has no "real" interpretation that I have otherwise seen so much of in some churches.

This we disagree on. Im not willing to do without on anything that is a gift or a work from God, even if those in the flesh make it hard!
I also do not believe anyone person has th gift of intepretation. I feel God will use severly as he will. He can use anyone at anytime.

one love wrote:

I would rather be without M&I than all the emotional-babble that has no "real" interpretation that I have otherwise seen so much of in some churches.

This we disagree on. Im not willing to do without on anything that is a gift or a work from God, even if those in the flesh make it hard!
I also do not believe anyone person has th gift of intepretation. I feel God will use severly as he will. He can use anyone at anytime.

but is it a gift from God if it is directed from emotionalism and "flesh"? I say no. again, and in context with what I said, if there is no interpretation, let the "message" be "personal" and not loud-to-the-congregation. Paul was very clear on this kind of activity, in addressing immaturity with the Corinthians.

The problem is that the M&I are usually not dealt with is a scriptural fashion. Each word from the Lord is to be judged by the PROPHETS of a church, to decide if it is indeed from the Lord. The Pastor and elders of a church may be among them but aren't always. Some pastors are reluctant to give that much control over to anyone else, and sometimes the elders are of the same opinion. Sometimes, I think folks just have no idea what to do, and are fearful of quenching the Spirit. Either way, there is usually no attempt to identify and/or nurture potential prophets to be able to correctly render judgment on words purporting to be of the Lord.

I've heard people say that you don't want to come down on folks who find the courage to step out in faith and speak up in a service, even if everyone in the building including all the babies in the nursery know it ain't God speaking, for fear of discouraging them. But, maybe a little fear about speaking up in the name of God isn't such a bad thing. maybe then we would be able to trust the revelatory gifts God has given the church instead of thinking "there goes ol' whatshisname again. Every service that guy has a 'word'. Why doesn't someone tell him nobody's buying it?"

writted a paper on this. wunder if I can find it. yea, here it is:
http://www.jude2.com/viewtopic.php?t=8351

and a couple threads on the subject:
http://www.jude2.com/viewtopic.php?t=7529
http://www.jude2.com/viewtopic.php?t=15692
http://www.jude2.com/viewtopic.php?t=10296