Jude 2

We hear a lot today about church growth but how much of the "church growth" is coming from new births? It seems that many times we are doing far more transferring than we are leading people to Christ. There will always be people transferring for different reasons but Christ called us to spread the Gospel not transfer it. I am curious what others may have to say about it.

pastorsa1 wrote:We hear a lot today about church growth but how much of the "church growth" is coming from new births? It seems that many times we are doing far more transferring than we are leading people to Christ. There will always be people transferring for different reasons but Christ called us to spread the Gospel not transfer it. I am curious what others may have to say about it.

I agree. I think we have not put as much effort that is needed in reaching the lost and allowing God to chnage lives by salvation. This has often bothered me.

It's not happening everywhere. Our church has only 1 CoGoP transfer and that's because his church went independent.

The rest of our membership is a community church.

ChurchLaughs.com may have it.

I think you can define growth in many ways.....or it seems to be the perogotive of the "church" to do so.

We have numerical growth, spiritual growth, financial growth, ....all that inside the idea that "all is well". I talked to a pastor recently and asked him how his church was doing.....he replied, "this church is doing great...it's dying slower than any church I have ever pastored".

Transfer growth was never a real consideration for me. I think that in areas where there are more than one church, it can be a very devisive thing. We lived in Cleveland for 5 years and it was ridiculous that when certain pastoral changes happened, there were people who just transfered to another church in town. It was very divisive and I did not consider that "growth". I understand the transfer situation when people move to new locations and the like.

I think the attitude of the church should be winning new souls to Christ and letting him add to the body as it pleases HIM!!!

As a state overseer, I discouraged a lot of transfering to "neighboring " churches and actually required a reason attached to the transfer.

So, do you call it growth.....sure ....they sit in the pew no one was using!


Just my .02 worth.

I'm going to get real transparent for a second here. We've been attending our local church (for those newer to J2 and those who I haven't interacted with much this year and may not know me at all, that would be a non-COGOP church) for almost ten years. Been with and part of leadership through thick and very, very thin. Was glad to do it. Last year, things happened in connection with our search for a pastor (which lasted 18 months or so) that I utilized to believe that we were all being changed in a specific way. "All" here means the core of our church family. The specific change was, in a few words, becoming actual followers of Jesus' ways through the spiritual disciplines and taking on a specific way of looking at God and each other, and the world we're in.

Then, we hired a pastor that I was completely, 100% for hiring, helped interview, recommend and select. What followed was, to my wife and I, unacceptable. Of many things, one specific thing relevant to this thread. Our church bought billboards around town with one line: www.myboringchurch dot com (I've tried to spam-proof that; the ad had the actual dot.) Well, it was simply a marketing tool for the dissatisfied and bored-of-church to visit us because we were more fun or whatever. We had never, ever engaged in that strategy and we (wife and myself) had always said we never wanted to. Our opinions were not solicited ahead of time, nor should they have been, and I didn't even know the billboards were ours until I got online to see the website out of curiosity.

That was one thing, others more personal happened that don't merit going into. But, we left in the first week of October, quietly and without so much as a squeak or even an expression of dissatisfaction. Attendance since the relaunch of our church in September had been great (averaging 150-180), and at least a few people were not believers. That's God's business and we're not gonna meddle in it. But, the whole experience, chiefly that portion of it targeting people in their own churches to try us on for size, just dislodged me and I was in there, buddy. I just have a cardinal belief that you don't monkey around, by marketing or any other direct, overt effort, with peoples' relationships with their church families. We're not in competition with each other, and it is one of the very few things in this world that I find actually offensive. We didn't hold it against them and still don't. But, we took the things that are essential to us and we snuck out the back door so as not to dishonor God's work in lives there and to keep from destroying long, cherished friendships with those whom we served.

dolfan

I just have a cardinal belief that you don't monkey around, by marketing or any other direct, overt effort, with peoples' relationships with their church families. We're not in competition with each other, and it is one of the very few things in this world that I find actually offensive. We didn't hold it against them and still don't. But, we took the things that are essential to us and we snuck out the back door so as not to dishonor God's work in lives there and to keep from destroying long, cherished friendships with those whom we served.

My previous post on a Cry for Evangelism expresses my feelings concerning the lack of evangelism in the church today.

Dr. Ron wrote:Transfer growth was never a real consideration for me.

In all fairness, Ron, we all have some "transfer growth," though we don't always define it that way.

I have a lot of people who have attended other churches in the past, dropped out for one reason or the other, and found a home at Windward. You, likewise, have former COGOP and TCOG people among your congregation that many here might see as "transfer growth."

I am not knocking your church or mine -- it is a reality of church life in the 21st Century... people vote with their feet. The key, I think, is that you and I are not setting out to raid other ministries; we are trying to reach the lost, unchurched and castaways in our areas, and some people not being used in a local church are attracted to ministries of significance and want to get on board. Take Danny & Wendy and kids for example; this may be the first time (ever?) they have been in a healthy, well-balanced, Christ-centered church that doesn't base its need to exist on some obscure twisting of scripture.

Please let me clarify, if need be, that I know that some lateral moves are inevitable and natural and people who make those moves often become what-we-do-without-'em partners in ministry and life.

Shellie wrote:It's not happening everywhere. Our church has only 1 CoGoP transfer and that's because his church went independent.

The rest of our membership is a community church.

Yes but is this transfers from other organizations or all new salvations?

Transfer growth, whether it's within a denomination, or between different ones is still only transfers, there are many lost out there that aren't being reached while some (not implying you Shellie) are working hard to convert the converted and are basically just seeking those already saved.

Transfer growth is NOT a problem, sometimes people find a church that ministers to them more, or they can minister to others more, and that's fine.

BUT

That probably shouldn't be our primary target. I don't think we should actively seek out members of other churches, when there are unsaved to be reached. This doesn't mean we will turn them away if they come, but that we don't see the church down the street as our mission field.

We have transfer growth, as all do, and we have and do have some who have become "frequent visitors" that I would love to see call us home, but as long as they have another home church, we can't push that. If they are seeking, we let them know they are welcome, and make it a point to say we are not trying to pull them away from their home church, encouraging them to really seek God before that type of change.

Bill wrote:

Yes but is this transfers from other organizations or all new salvations?

I would say that less than 10% of our membership is transfers from any other churches.

Shellie wrote:Bill wrote:

Yes but is this transfers from other organizations or all new salvations?

I would say that less than 10% of our membership is transfers from any other churches.

We have a lot of people who grew up in a Catholic or other church, dropped out and have not returned in years. I don't consider them transfers; they were essentially unchurched.

Pastor Gary,

I agree with you and that is what I am talking about. We have people that have went to church before, some even raised in church. But the largest majority of our church membership came from a backslidden, rededicated, or first time saved status.

Shellie wrote:Bill wrote:

Yes but is this transfers from other organizations or all new salvations?

I would say that less than 10% of our membership is transfers from any other churches.

and that's great! I figured that with the ministry you have.