Jude 2

In another thread ONE LOVE (who is framing his arguments respectfully and with grace) has been going a few rounds with several COGOP and former COGOP people, and I have been jumping in that now and then.

Pondering his perspective and mine, and trying to understand the fundamental differences that make our paths diverge, I came to this:

Some people view the church as a fortress, to be defended. They see it as important to make sure everyone in that fortress wears the same uniform, salutes the same flag and marches in step.

Others view the church as an army of revolution, storming the gates of Hell to tear down Satan's kingdom. When others come along and say "I want to fight alongside!" they equip them with weapons, welcome them as comrades, and watch one-another's back... different uniforms, different flags: same enemy.

Hmmm, could be why we have an Army, a Navy, a Marine Corp, AND an Air Force?

Not to mention Coast Guard and such.

Pastor Gary wrote:In another thread ONE LOVE (who is framing his arguments respectfully and with grace) has been going a few rounds with several COGOP and former COGOP people, and I have been jumping in that now and then.

Pondering his perspective and mine, and trying to understand the fundamental differences that make our paths diverge, I came to this:

Some people view the church as a fortress, to be defended. They see it as important to make sure everyone in that fortress wears the same uniform, salutes the same flag and marches in step.

Others view the church as an army of revolution, storming the gates of Hell to tear down Satan's kingdom. When others come along and say "I want to fight alongside!" they equip them with weapons, welcome them as comrades, and watch one-another's back... different uniforms, different flags: same enemy.

That is a nice way to put it, Pastor Gary.

Pastor Gary wrote:

Others view the church as an army of revolution, storming the gates of Hell to tear down Satan's kingdom. When others come along and say "I want to fight alongside!" they equip them with weapons, welcome them as comrades, and watch one-another's back... different uniforms, different flags: same enemy.

I agree compltely. Gordon Fee in his book on Paul makes the following comment.

" the question Paul answers in I Cor 12:13 is not how people become believers -- although that is obviously involved -- but how the many of them, composed of Jew and Gentile, slave and free, make up the one body of Christ. Paul's answer: All alike were immersed in the same reality, spirit, and all alike were caused to drink to the fill of the same reality, spirit, so as to form one body in Christ."

Make me want to shout !!

my comment: It is this community of believers, the people of God focused in battle, as you said PG, against the one real enemy, Satan's Kingdom, this people will truly have an impact on the world.

Pastor Gary wrote:Others view the church as an army of revolution, storming the gates of Hell to tear down Satan's kingdom. When others come along and say "I want to fight alongside!" they equip them with weapons, welcome them as comrades, and watch one-another's back... different uniforms, different flags: same enemy.

That about wraps it up in a nutshell. Great way to think about.

All I can say is...... AMEN!!

Nice touch Gary.....and I do agree. The only fly in that ointment, is when there are turf wars and arguments about a doctrinal issue that clouds the issue of who the enemy is.

You have stated well.....and it does take all of us working together....that is why I get "offended" at being called an "independent". I am VERY dependent on the entire body of Christ working in tandem/

However, on the light side of your arguement....it kinda goes like this.

Military nomenclature:

The army is told to secure a building:
They call in the infantry, prepare the offensive with artilary for 12 hours and Rangers rapell in from choppers.

The Marines: Set up a beach head, call for amphibious assault, send out sniper teams and recon goes ahead to set up a perimeter.

The Navy: Calls in two carriers to the nearest port....sets up a no fly zone with f/22s.

The Air Force: Negotiates a five year lease with option on the building and calls maintenance to change the locks.

All see the job in different ways......churches do too....thank God for diversity!!!!!!

I am definitly on the common enemy/common purpose mentality side. We're always stronger in numbers.

I try to be very laid back on "tradition" and "doctrine" that is derived from "tradition"

There are too many that think they can't worship together because of different communion styles, baptism styles, and worship styles.

All Paul was concerned about was Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Everything else is about personal faith and relationship. We are allowed to and should differ on the many aspects of faith that we may see a differently on.

The one and only thread that should be needed to bind us together is Jesus Christ, Emanuel (God with Us), Alpha and Omega, and our crucified savior who was fully God and fully man!

Eveything else is details. We need to see the big picture to unite the Kingdom of God and stand together to fight Satan and his kingdom!!

my perspective is that Paintball is Fun!...

oh and I agree with you PG, the anogy seems to be pretty good. except I think that the differentiation might be less pronounced than presented.

as an extended example, the fort-paradigm, there may be some that believe that THE fort is there to be defended, etc, but there may be some that believe that the fort is there for protection and others are allowed, and they prefer to have them wear the same uniform, and salute the same flag, but are flexible a bit with how the flag is saluted and how the uniform is buttoned up.

and the Army paradigm, might also have regiments that prefer to have everyone in lockstep and uniformed the same, but know that it will take a while to get to that point if ever, but is still something to be worked toward.

In other words, as mentioned the differentiation might be more gray; especially if trying to discuss the finer points of the battle plan on a text-only forum limited to subjectively presented text posts and a limited number of emoticons that have assumed meaning/feelings attached.

but hay, I have been known to be wrong in my opinions.

I'm a storming the gates kind of guy, but I'm very careful about who comes with me.

I guess that comes from the experience of finding everyone who talks the talk doesn't have the goods to back it up.

RamboPreacher wrote:my perspective is that Paintball is Fun!...

oh and I agree with you PG, the anogy seems to be pretty good. except I think that the differentiation might be less pronounced than presented.

as an extended example, the fort-paradigm, there may be some that believe that THE fort is there to be defended, etc, but there may be some that believe that the fort is there for protection and others are allowed, and they prefer to have them wear the same uniform, and salute the same flag, but are flexible a bit with how the flag is saluted and how the uniform is buttoned up.

and the Army paradigm, might also have regiments that prefer to have everyone in lockstep and uniformed the same, but know that it will take a while to get to that point if ever, but is still something to be worked toward.

In other words, as mentioned the differentiation might be more gray; especially if trying to discuss the finer points of the battle plan on a text-only forum limited to subjectively presented text posts and a limited number of emoticons that have assumed meaning/feelings attached.

but hay, I have been known to be wrong in my opinions.

Hey Rambo, you would never get out of the "War Room" and on the field...

Dr. Ron wrote:Nice touch Gary.....and I do agree. The only fly in that ointment, is when there are turf wars and arguments about a doctrinal issue that clouds the issue of who the enemy is.

Awesome Dr. Ron.. if I didn't have my own mind.. I would want yours.
This is specifically where most battles are fought and we've never looked outside.

Isn't that kind of Satan's gameplan? To make us think each other is the enemy so we miss the real enemy?

EVERY YEAR right before and after youth retreat, we go through struggles within our youth group. EVERY YEAR, we have to remind the teens and even the adults that Satan's job is to break us up and defeat our purpose. He's threatened by our unity, especially the effectiveness of our youth retreat. So, we pray for strength to withstand his attacks and challenge the youngsters to IDENTIFY the enemy.

I think that will preach.

Pastor Gary wrote:In another thread ONE LOVE (who is framing his arguments respectfully and with grace) has been going a few rounds with several COGOP and former COGOP people, and I have been jumping in that now and then.

Pondering his perspective and mine, and trying to understand the fundamental differences that make our paths diverge, I came to this:

Some people view the church as a fortress, to be defended. They see it as important to make sure everyone in that fortress wears the same uniform, salutes the same flag and marches in step.

Others view the church as an army of revolution, storming the gates of Hell to tear down Satan's kingdom. When others come along and say "I want to fight alongside!" they equip them with weapons, welcome them as comrades, and watch one-another's back... different uniforms, different flags: same enemy.

Thank you for your kindness PG!
Try to understand we believe in everyone being united in one faith. Not so many different doctrines. Does that mean other churches are not doing work, surely not all that are saved are benefiting the kingdom. We do believe there has to be government to have order just like the military. They may be different forces but they have the same agenda under one nation. I feel we will be united together and believe it is not a hard task for the LORD. When Israel had sin in the camp they never prospered, that is why government is important. Yes we believe in grace but that does not exempt us from biblical principles. "mark them which cause divisions" "teach no other dcotrine" yes we guard these things because we want to stand on the word. I often say we dont exlude we are inclusive because we feel that all chrstians will walk in one mind and one accord just as the day of pentecost. Also when there were doctrinal items to be discussed they met together and did that which seemeth good to them and the holy ghost.
One misconception regarding us is that we feel we are better then all the rest.That is simply not true. We believe in theocratic government ruled by the head of the church Jesus Christ. With that said belive we will all see eye to eye once again. So by that we do believe in the exclusive Bride of christ and all christians will be united together into that one fold.

With that said I have heard people say things against other churches and I cant stand it and make it very public as well. Just as others should not insult us either just over some theological differences we are brother and sisters in christ Jesus

I am really enjoying get to know many of you.

one love wrote:Thank you for your kindness PG!

¡de nada!

one love wrote:Try to understand we believe in everyone being united in one faith. Not so many different doctrines.

Really? I don't think so. I think what y'all believe is in everyone being united in your interpretation and understanding of one faith. And by "not so many doctrines," what is meant is "conform to our doctrine."

The irony is, ONE LOVE, that your blinders prevent you from seeing that "I feel we will be united together" only has meaning for you if it requires all others to abandon their beliefs and adopt yours. No? Then here's a challenge for you: leave your church and join mine in the interest of promoting being united together. The entire concept of dividing from others in the name of uniting defies logic.

one love wrote:I often say we dont exlude we are inclusive because we feel that all chrstians will walk in one mind and one accord just as the day of pentecost.

Have you ever read "1984" by Orwell? What a perfect example of newspeak.

Here's the deal -- I have been where you are, believed the way you believe, and have made the same arguments you are making... I'd like to think I made them as concisely as you. I have the advantage of seeing your point from the outside looking in, and I promise that when you finally see that the emporor has no clothes, will not say "I told you so."

one love wrote:I am really enjoying get to know many of you.

Likewise. And I only engage you in discussion because you seem reasonably intelligent and polite, and a cut above some of the mindless robots I have encountered now and then. There's hope for you.