WHat do you believe about the gifts of the Spirit?

[Pastor Bill]

Michael, you may be dealing with someone who is faking it. plain and simple, but before I would go accusing we must remember a few things.

First are you sure the message were exactly the same (I have never seen this happen, which makes me wonder if it might have been rehearsed) Remember in a language you are not famiar with many words have similar sounds and structures, so just because they sounded similar doesn't mean they were the same.

Second, it is not true that a phrase in one language would only have one translation, take the English Phrase "I Love you" I am not fluent in Spanish, but I do know that in Spanish this can be translated as "Te Amo" or as "Yo te quiero" both with the same basic meaning, but then if the general idea is not the same, I would question it.

Third, remember that interpretation does not mean the same thing as translation, interpretation is to convey the ideas, not neccesarily word for word translation. Additional clarification or rewording wouldn't be out of line as long as God is the one giving the interpretation and the person isn't trying to do it in their own abilities.

Look at the time when Christ asked Peter 3 times "Do you love me?" if you go back to the greek, there was much more going on their, and the three questions were not the same, if we applied your standards to this then the Bible would also contain this error, because the English words are the same but very different Greek words with different meanings and conotations were originally used.

[Pastor Bill]

90%??? Those are big numbers - but I tend to agree with maybe 75%. And what about when someone is speaking "in tongues" and stops just for a second to open their eyes and see if anyone is watching and then resumes the "language". I couldn't count the number of times I have seen this happen in conventions and conferences.

Just to clarify, I don't mean what I wrote disrespectfully as I can understand how excited people are when they get filled with the Holy Ghost the first time, speak in tongues, and then like a little kid with a new toy want to play with it all the time. But when seasoned Christians carry on for years and years on end with the same old messages and interpretations, it is hard to resist the conclusion that they just want to bring attention to themselves and their "spirituality." I'm not impressed and frankly, I wish the pastor(s) would just tell them to be quiet. But that's a hard thing to do when one is important to the church school as a coordinator and teacher and the other gives big offerings.

See I guess this is one of the reasons I brought this up, many people tend to see the gifts as something they own and can use whenever they want, this makes people want to turn them praying in tongues into a message from God (hey if I get loud enough and people notices they will be quiet and someone will interpret me!) But this isn't the case. If God want's a message given out He will take care of it and anytime someone "pushes" the spirit in any gift they are out of line. Like you said I think this is due to the fact that tongues is easier to fake than miracles (unless you count televangelists!)

I think this is the main point Paul was speaking about in I Corinthians 14, many pentecostals shy away from this chapter because it has been used to try to reject the gifts by many non-pentecostals, but as a former non-pentecostal who used this chapter many times, I feel it needs to be understood in the church because when things are in order it makes clear sense, but when people are trying to do the work of the spirit in themselves this chapter is a harsh chastisement.

I have come to the conclusion that the most important thing is to seek God's leading, if we are doing this, the gifts fall in place correctly and in order, but if we are trying to take control and do the leading ourselves we will always mess it up.

[Brian]

Kenya wrote:
"And what about when someone is speaking "in tongues" and stops just for a second to open their eyes and see if anyone is watching and then resumes the "language".

I know what you mean, but are we sure that they are stopping to see if anyone is looking? Maybe some are, but this is where I think we dont fully understand the accually operation of some of the gifts of the Spirit.

Some think that the only genuine tongue is when the speaker is totally tuned in, eyes close, sometimes shaking uncontrollably, almost being moved or controlled like a puppet. I dont see it that way, at least not entirely. Sure one can be in that state and truly be in the spirit and speaking in tongues but I believe one can also be speaking as calmly and plainly and go right into and out of speaking in tongue, and yes I mean under there own personaly control.

1 Cor. 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1 Cor. 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

This implies control over the gift of praying and singing in the spirit. Paul is doing this, he says "I will pray/sing in the spirit". We are not robots or puppets that the Holy Spirit needs to use to communicate to God. He doesnt need to "use" our voice to talk,pray,sing to God, He IS God.

I said all that just to say that I dont like the idea that we are used as puppets and have no control over such gifts. Of course we do!!

God bless

[Pastor Bill]

Michael, you may be dealing with someone who is faking it. plain and simple, but before I would go accusing we must remember a few things.

Not accusing, Bill, just scrutinizing very closely.

I was not saying you were accusing (didn't mean to accuse you of accusing ) but more agreeing with a little hesitancy.

First are you sure the message were exactly the same (I have never seen this happen, which makes me wonder if it might have been rehearsed)

The one example I am thinking of and which got me to thinking about the issue was a friend in Sweden and I were listening to a cassette tape of a Church of God of Prophecy service in Finland. My friend was Finnish but could speak Swedish fluently and we listened to the cassette together. The message in tongues was given and the interpretation followed. The exact same message in tongues was given and another interpretation followed. He pointed out that the tongues were the same but the interpretation was different. He wasn't condemning anyone but was just pointing out the difference in interpretation when the messages in tongues were the same. And like I said, that experience got me to thinking about all this.

it would me too, I just wanted to make sure to point it out because to many people it all just sounds the same and they don't take the time to really listen.

Remember in a language you are not famiar with many words have similar sounds and structures, so just because they sounded similar doesn't mean they were the same.

Well, in this case they were and at the Assembly of God church I used to attend, there was always one woman who blurted out a message in tongues which sounded nearly identical every time yet with different interpretations. From a human linguistic point of view this is impossible.

Sounds to me like this woman may have been pushing things some (seen it happen many times) Thankfully I have not had to deal with it as a Pastor because it would be a difficult situation to handle well without hurting feelings, or being misunderstood or considered as judgemental. I guess it would all depend on the situation and how the Lord would lead in handling it, but I agree too much has been let go on in many churches.

I had a friend at one time who had basically turned his back on church, but still would attend from time to time and acted like he was closer to God than ever. He was always coming up with something that "the Lord had impressed upon him" and asking for what I thought it meant sometimes it would be things really off the wall, but God sometimes would lead me to use them as opportunites. One such time he had "been given" the word "yellow" I told him I really didn't know, but the first thing that came to my mind was that most people describe lions as having a yellow color, and the verse that Satan is as a roaming lion seeking whom he may devour comes to mind. Yellow also being a warning color God was probably warning him and telling him he needed to put God back first in his life and quit playing games. (which was what the Pastor had also been talking to him about for weeks)

Third, remember that interpretation does not mean the same thing as translation, interpretation is to convey the ideas, not neccesarily word for word translation. Additional clarification or rewording wouldn't be out of line as long as God is the one giving the interpretation and the person isn't trying to do it in their own abilities.

Mike Vande has pointed this out and I don't necessarily disagree. However, if I should say:

Ra ca ca sela mo shanti

on one occasion and the interpretation was:

Repent and do your first works over again ...

and on the next occasion with the same message in tongues the interpretation was:

The Lord is pleased with His people ...

I'd suspect that at least one of the interpretations was wrong, maybe both, and perhaps the message in tongues was nothing but useless babble.

Quite possible, but it may also be possible that the message was saying somewhat both, but one portion was emphasised more than the other. I am trying to twist this around in my head to make this particular example work in that way, and it almost does, but still seems like streaching it, but then again in Spanish por que and porque mean almost the opposite, but sound identical (at least to me, maybe someone more fluent can distinguish). So that could play a part as well. I guess I am just trying to give the benefit of the doubt, if I were there when it happened I would be able to go a little more on what I felt in the spirit as well, God does also give discernment and I have had many times that I have distanced myself from somthing because I did not feel it was the Holy Spirit doing it. I have not had to deal with it as a Pastor, and hope not to.

Look at the time when Christ asked Peter 3 times "Do you love me?" if you go back to the greek, there was much more going on their, and the three questions were not the same,

Are you so sure about this, Bill? I'm going to email you a very interesting commentary in .doc form and it comes with a little test that I hope you can take honestly. You'll see what I mean when it arrives in your mailbox. Then get back to me and see if there is as much going on in John 21:15-17 as you think there is.

I read the document you sent me, but you didn't include the answer key or any information about the author. I would have to look up the instances that He mentioned, but I wouldn't discount the differences in the words either, even the closest synonyms have slightly different meanings, and these words became the roots for many english words today, so we do have fairly good resources on what they refer to. but that is besides the point, I could say God Loves you, and someone else say God cares deeply for you, these would be an interpretation of the same thing even though the exact words were different.

if we applied your standards to this then the Bible would also contain this error, because the English words are the same but very different Greek words with different meanings and conotations were originally used.

Write me back after you have taken the test and let me know if you still feel the same way.

I have looked at it but didn't have a way of checking it so I don't know if that counts. Basically though these words are different, I don't know that they are enough different for the big deal some people make over them, but there are differences even if they are slight, otherwise they would not have been used separately. Even in the repetition of the question there is an implication of the question being deeper than Peter had really understood it at the time.

[Pastor Bill]

Kenya wrote:
"And what about when someone is speaking "in tongues" and stops just for a second to open their eyes and see if anyone is watching and then resumes the "language".

I know what you mean, but are we sure that they are stopping to see if anyone is looking? Maybe some are, but this is where I think we dont fully understand the accually operation of some of the gifts of the Spirit.

Some think that the only genuine tongue is when the speaker is totally tuned in, eyes close, sometimes shaking uncontrollably, almost being moved or controlled like a puppet. I dont see it that way, at least not entirely. Sure one can be in that state and truly be in the spirit and speaking in tongues but I believe one can also be speaking as calmly and plainly and go right into and out of speaking in tongue, and yes I mean under there own personaly control.

1 Cor. 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1 Cor. 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

This implies control over the gift of praying and singing in the spirit. Paul is doing this, he says "I will pray/sing in the spirit". We are not robots or puppets that the Holy Spirit needs to use to communicate to God. He doesnt need to "use" our voice to talk,pray,sing to God, He IS God.

I said all that just to say that I dont like the idea that we are used as puppets and have no control over such gifts. Of course we do!!

God bless

I agree for the most part with what you are saying, many times tradition trumps God's freedom to move, but I don't think these verses imply control. We have to be willing to be used, but we must also release control to the Spirit so that we can be directed and moved. Kind of like flowing with a current, that doesn't mean we are puppets, but obedient servants. I think the problem is when we drop the obedience and try to take control.

[Pastor Bill]

Thanks for the definitions Michael. I am not one who likes to do alot of redefining to make a point, but it is an interesting study in many passages to look back at the Greek to pick up little nuances and things that get lost in translation. I am very limited in my knowledge of Greek, and I think it is presumptous to feel like a person has to retranslate everything to get a clear understanding despite all the work hundreds of scholars put into the translations that we have, but it is also a little naive to think that there is no subtle flavors lost in translation from ancient Greek to modern English. I think that some people go overboard with retranslation, and others go overboard with an adherance to a translation well over it's sources. Neither one is very open to allowing God to lead and teach us.

[Pastor Bill]

Michael, I had typed a long response, but lost it, so I will condense and fill in if you more later if you want it.

3 things

1. I agree with you, I prefer to use the Bible over commentaries and other books of teaching, but I recognize that sometimes we need to look back to the Greek to clarify or for deeper study, but not to attempt to disprove the KJV or other translations, but only to dig a little deeper.

2. Pulling one word and "interpretting" it is going to be basically the same as translation, one sentence on the other hand is a different situation, one paragraph even more. Interpreting is basically putting it in other words (not always even in another language, but generally in an easier to understand language) the problem with interpretation is that slight differences in wordings can give different emphasis on different things.

3. Even speaking exactly the same words with a different emphasis can completely change the meaning. One example of this is a note I had seen left in a bathroom by the person who had recently cleaned. It said "We aim to please. You aim too, please!" not speaking English these would sound identical, but have two very different meanings. The same way subtle differences in languages are often missed by those who are not familiar with the dialect.

I am not saying these things to justify what you witnessed, but only trying to offer some other explanations that could be possible. My best advice is that we should in all things seek God for discernment, as well as guidance in how to react. If we are seeking God, He will lead us to what is right, and steer us away from what is false. That seeking is not just looking for a good feeling, but needs to be seeking in prayer, worship and study.

[Pastor Bill]

Michael, it sounds like you have really been around alot of abuse of this gift, and I can see why that would make you cynical. Biblically the gift is valid, and should be present in the church, but there are alot of churches that allow it to be abused.

Personally I have not had to deal with as much of a problem in this as I have in some of the other gifts, or with the superior attitdude of those who feel they own a gift, and try to control how and when it is used.

Don't get me wrong, I have visited some churches and seen the problems you are talking about, but would never have felt comfortable calling them my home church, and God has always provided me with a home church where the gifts were handled in more in order. Now as a pastor, I am blessed with a good group of people who are a little shy about stepping out and letting God use them, so we don't have the most spiritual services, but when God moves you know it's God. The church is growing and as long as the focus stays on God, I don't see us having a problem with the abuse I have seen in many churches, and like I said, I can take you to a number of places where things are being handled in order, so I tend not to be as cynical about it only picky on what I would recommend as a good church.