Jude 2

I am moving this discussion to keep from further hi-jacking my other thread.

one love wrote:to let you know I agree with this post one hundred percent. I am very bothered the way people are looked at who have money. If your home is over 1600 sq. ft. it would be over 400k here

shock: Errrr... are you in the house moving business?

one love wrote:My point i guess is like i said getting rich off of the ministry seems backwards to me.

I understand. This is one reason that I am in business now instead of full time pastoral. I didn't like the feeling of being hired by ministry.

However, there is nothing wrong with receiving ministry income. Many do and rightfully so. The question is who decides how much is too much. I believe I saw a report once in a Christian magazine that the average U.S. pastor's salary is around $65K. I would say that it's much less in the COGOP. Yet, a few pastors make much more. I know one personally who makes over $100K myself.

In a society where education and income play a large role in almost everything, why is it wrong for ministers and/or Christians to make large incomes, especially if they are good stewards of God's money? How much is too much? Again, I say that it's all relative and only the individual and God can truly know. (Kind of like Rick Warren paying 90% to God and keeping only 10%. I'm sure the 10% isn't chump change. )

pa

pastorables wrote: why is it wrong for ministers and/or Christians to make large incomes,

In my opinion it is not. The only issue I would have is if a minister was getting filthy and living large off of his congregation who are struggling to make it themselves.

pastorables wrote: How much is too much? Again, I say that it's all relative and only the individual and God can truly know.

The income, or money, itself is not the issue. To me, the issue is could be with how the money is made and what is done with it.

Relative to Rick Warren paying 90% tithes, one needs to know his whole story.
Rick and Kay started out their married lives paying 10%. The Lord blessed them and the next year the upper their giving to 11%. They have increased their yearly giving every year of their married lives. They didn't just wake up rich and say...."wow, we have a windfall here, let's see what we need to do". They were giving 50% of their income long before he wrote "Purpose Driven Life". So, the desire to give more was always there. He is purposefull about every thing he does....and never preaches anything he hasn't lived out himself. I like that.

As for getting rich....boy I missed that class. In my 50 years of ministry I have never once made $50 k a year. My salary package is about $44K right now. As an overseer of small states I made less money (net) than my pastors who pastored limit churches. I had to pay most of my own expenses.

I did have an offer from a Baptist church here in Nashville who based my salary offer on my degrees and experience. They offered me six figures!! But I will not work for a board!!!!

Anyway, you can't generalize about this stuff. I had pastors who were part time and made $200. per month and were not worth that to the church.

pastorables wrote:I am moving this discussion to keep from further hi-jacking my other thread.

one love wrote:to let you know I agree with this post one hundred percent. I am very bothered the way people are looked at who have money. If your home is over 1600 sq. ft. it would be over 400k here

shock: Errrr... are you in the house moving business?

one love wrote:My point i guess is like i said getting rich off of the ministry seems backwards to me.

I understand. This is one reason that I am in business now instead of full time pastoral. I didn't like the feeling of being hired by ministry.

However, there is nothing wrong with receiving ministry income. Many do and rightfully so. The question is who decides how much is too much. I believe I saw a report once in a Christian magazine that the average U.S. pastor's salary is around $65K. I would say that it's much less in the COGOP. Yet, a few pastors make much more. I know one personally who makes over $100K myself.

In a society where education and income play a large role in almost everything, why is it wrong for ministers and/or Christians to make large incomes, especially if they are good stewards of God's money? How much is too much? Again, I say that it's all relative and only the individual and God can truly know. (Kind of like Rick Warren paying 90% to God and keeping only 10%. I'm sure the 10% isn't chump change. )

pa

No im not in the house moving buisness. but my company is directly reflective of the wealthy. I work with many large builders. I am also thinking of starting a realestate buisness so I pay attention to the housing market.

Ok I agree there is nothing wrong from recieving money from the ministry. I think our (tcog) limit is to low. Because as you implied it is all relative in many ways. If my church was a limit paying church i still would have to work fulltime and mabye my wife as well. SO I feel it is way to low. In other areas it would be more then enough to make it off the limit. Some people tell me they can buy a house for a 100k a nice one and I laugh becasue i wouldnt know what to do If we could here. Limit paying would work there. I was told by another pastor when I was appointed that I would probablly have to give up my buisness. Now lets first look at my wife quit working at a law firm as a paralegal so she could stay home with the kids. Second I dont get much at all from our church most of it goes into the rent anyway. SO if I quit the buisness I would not know what to do.

Now getting filthy rich off of a ministry I feel is wrong. If you have a 500 member church and they want you to recieve 100k a year , I feel there is nothing wrong with that. Some think that is rich but I assure you it is not even close, not even a taste If they get 5 million a year as pastor I have a problem with that, help me understand how that is ok. Im open for ideas. I cant feel how that is ok to be excessively rich by the ministry, that could be used for support in many other areas. One could live off of 200k easily why do they need 5 million.

Now I have nothing wrong with one having a hundred million it just bothers me if t comes from ministries who ask for money to go around the world when if they took a 20 percent cut in pay they would go around 10 times more.

If I was worth 200 million I would have vacation houses, log cabbins, cars, maybe a helicopter. BUt It would be such a small percentage of spending compared to one who makes 50k a year. I would also travel mission fields and do all I could to bring there situation better. I have a good heart i would love to be able to help others and our church. So I hope that helps.

Paully_44 wrote: The only issue I would have is if a minister was getting filthy (rich) and living large off of his congregation who are struggling to make it themselves.

I assume you left out rich so I added it for clarity.

I think I understand the way you are filtering your opinion, but how is this any different from those same struggling people giving their money to doctors and lawyers who are filthy rich? Once income reaches the hands of the minister, he has the responsibility under God to be a wise steward. Furthermore, the people pay their tithes or offerings as unto God so the level (often based upon size of congregation) of income shouldn't be a great issue. The reason it usually becomes an issue in churches is that everyone in the church view themselves as a church boss, since... ummm... they do help pay the pastor's salary... (a little sarcasm).

As pastor, I remember once when we lost a lady after we bought another vehicle. It was stated that she didn't want to help us pay for our "new" car. In actuality, we traded down. Although the car was a different car, it wasn't a new car and actually helped us lower our payments. Yet, the church bosses always know best?!

I still think the minister's job and income is more scrutinized than most others (well, maybe less than a coach ) and mostly unfairly.

Even though I have been a salaried minister, as a businessman supporting other ministers, I believe I can objectively speak from more than one point of view.

pa

A CNN article about the Prosperity Doctrine.