legalize drugs?

[one love]

For all the libertarians out there do you support legalizing all drug use?
Arguement being stop fighting the endless war on drugs and put the money into rehab. Yet if indepedent people are legally making drugs and selling them in stores it will never end either because it will be the biggest legal buisness ever. I also wonder how many places will be robbed that have narcotics? I do agree rehab is a much better solution but I would love insight from those who support legalizing drugs. Or the opposite those that feel it is the wrong move.

[Shellie]

Drugs are already legalized. It's just the ones that we have approved of. Now all those stills are being used as antiques and mailboxes.

[dolfan]

For all the libertarians out there do you support legalizing all drug use?
Arguement being stop fighting the endless war on drugs and put the money into rehab. Yet if indepedent people are legally making drugs and selling them in stores it will never end either because it will be the biggest legal buisness ever. I also wonder how many places will be robbed that have narcotics? I do agree rehab is a much better solution but I would love insight from those who support legalizing drugs. Or the opposite those that feel it is the wrong move.

I support it. Several main reasons.

1. The laws don't work, can't work, and cost more than they help. Bottom line is people are going to do drugs. Culturally, we're hedonists, and we're going to ingest substances that alter our moods to our liking, whether it is legal or not. Laws don't stop it; if they did, they would've already. We're more than 20 years past "just say no", and the only "no" in sight is the end of drug use. Meanwhile, tens of thousands of police officers and criminal justice workers, jails, jailers, jail builders, administrative personnel, benefits personnel, patrol car mechanics, uniform cleaners .... you get the picture .... are making their lives and livings from the demand for their work that exists almost solely because of a futile criminal drug code. All that stuff costs us lots and lots of money, and it simply does not work. It doesn't even get close to working. If we quadrupled the efforts, it wouldn't make a dent. People are using drugs undetected more than the system can ever hope to catch; those who are caught are being processed in and out of the overburdened albatross that is the system like a revolving door. Long punishment for drug uses are so dismally ineffective that most states have decided that to build new prisons and jails to house them simply isn't worth it. But, they've also decided that there IS an optimum level of enforcement that can be justified as a revenue-grabber and politically powerful sword. The only winners in the war on drugs are those controlling the criminal justice system.

2. Our nation's drug problem is a public health issue first and foremost, to the extent it is a political issue at all. Our policy should not be punishment based, but treatment based. Treatment is far more effective as a prevention and cessation tool than jail. One of the most notoriously easy places to score dope is jail. I know .... I've represented several people on contraband charges over the years. Meanwhile, drug recovery programs work. Judges require probationers and prisoners to go through them. They work as well as any other medical treatment works when a patient wants to be well. If the patient wants to be sick, nothing will stop them from doing what makes them sick.

3. The most popular drugs in America are alcohol and nicotine. They kill far more than all of the controlled substances combined. Their social effects are far more pervasive than that of controlled substances. Yet, the government makes such revenue from sales of beer and cigarettes that government cannot afford to wean itself. If government must avail itself of benefits in the drug trade ---- which it now does through justifying the existence of an overcostly criminal justice system ---- it could do so by decriminalizing the use of these substances and taxing the living daylights out of them. It would also eliminate almost totally the culture of violence that courses through the poor, urban communities where drug trade is a huge force in gang power struggles. Why? Because Wal-Mart would be selling weed and Proctor & Gamble would be making crystal meth; you wouldn't have babies exposed to meth labs in mobile homes and you wouldn't have gunfights in the streets (nearly so much as you have now) because the "bootleggers" would be out of business.

4. My crazy conspiracy theory reason (and laugh if you will, but this is my conviction): I firmly believe that our government is content to keep black people poor and in shackles, and that it benefits to a great degree from poor whites in the same position. I also believe that it wants to keep drugs illegal, to maintain the cycle of violence, crime, lack of education and the general downbeating of the black race by jailing a disproportionately high percentage of black men. We've replaced the plantation with the prison. High numbers of government-dependent black people are insurance for big-government bureaucrats to stay in power. Its a twisted version of Brave New World, but it is real. Families are dissolved, government is the big ol' teat that comes to the rescue, and a significant portion of the population is devoted to it and will remain true to it as it grows fatter and fuller from their own misery only to feed it back to them.

[rev rick]

For all the libertarians out there do you support legalizing all drug use?
Arguement being stop fighting the endless war on drugs and put the money into rehab. Yet if indepedent people are legally making drugs and selling them in stores it will never end either because it will be the biggest legal buisness ever. I also wonder how many places will be robbed that have narcotics? I do agree rehab is a much better solution but I would love insight from those who support legalizing drugs. Or the opposite those that feel it is the wrong move.

I support it. Several main reasons.

1. The laws don't work, can't work, and cost more than they help. Bottom line is people are going to do drugs. Culturally, we're hedonists, and we're going to ingest substances that alter our moods to our liking, whether it is legal or not. Laws don't stop it; if they did, they would've already. We're more than 20 years past "just say no", and the only "no" in sight is the end of drug use. Meanwhile, tens of thousands of police officers and criminal justice workers, jails, jailers, jail builders, administrative personnel, benefits personnel, patrol car mechanics, uniform cleaners .... you get the picture .... are making their lives and livings from the demand for their work that exists almost solely because of a futile criminal drug code. All that stuff costs us lots and lots of money, and it simply does not work. It doesn't even get close to working. If we quadrupled the efforts, it wouldn't make a dent. People are using drugs undetected more than the system can ever hope to catch; those who are caught are being processed in and out of the overburdened albatross that is the system like a revolving door. Long punishment for drug uses are so dismally ineffective that most states have decided that to build new prisons and jails to house them simply isn't worth it. But, they've also decided that there IS an optimum level of enforcement that can be justified as a revenue-grabber and politically powerful sword. The only winners in the war on drugs are those controlling the criminal justice system.

2. Our nation's drug problem is a public health issue first and foremost, to the extent it is a political issue at all. Our policy should not be punishment based, but treatment based. Treatment is far more effective as a prevention and cessation tool than jail. One of the most notoriously easy places to score dope is jail. I know .... I've represented several people on contraband charges over the years. Meanwhile, drug recovery programs work. Judges require probationers and prisoners to go through them. They work as well as any other medical treatment works when a patient wants to be well. If the patient wants to be sick, nothing will stop them from doing what makes them sick.

3. The most popular drugs in America are alcohol and nicotine. They kill far more than all of the controlled substances combined. Their social effects are far more pervasive than that of controlled substances. Yet, the government makes such revenue from sales of beer and cigarettes that government cannot afford to wean itself. If government must avail itself of benefits in the drug trade ---- which it now does through justifying the existence of an overcostly criminal justice system ---- it could do so by decriminalizing the use of these substances and taxing the living daylights out of them. It would also eliminate almost totally the culture of violence that courses through the poor, urban communities where drug trade is a huge force in gang power struggles. Why? Because Wal-Mart would be selling weed and Proctor & Gamble would be making crystal meth; you wouldn't have babies exposed to meth labs in mobile homes and you wouldn't have gunfights in the streets (nearly so much as you have now) because the "bootleggers" would be out of business.

4. My crazy conspiracy theory reason (and laugh if you will, but this is my conviction): I firmly believe that our government is content to keep black people poor and in shackles, and that it benefits to a great degree from poor whites in the same position. I also believe that it wants to keep drugs illegal, to maintain the cycle of violence, crime, lack of education and the general downbeating of the black race by jailing a disproportionately high percentage of black men. We've replaced the plantation with the prison. High numbers of government-dependent black people are insurance for big-government bureaucrats to stay in power. Its a twisted version of Brave New World, but it is real. Families are dissolved, government is the big ol' teat that comes to the rescue, and a significant portion of the population is devoted to it and will remain true to it as it grows fatter and fuller from their own misery only to feed it back to them.

#1 They don't work, because we don't protect borders, control cript, ect...we can find a sick cow with mad cow, we can do better.
#2 Same song, we don't want to control, to meny people making money.(
lawers)
#3 I agree I just did not see yours as a vote to legalize. looks like you object as much as I do!!
# 4 I agree with that to, but it is still the same argu ment I would use to object.
P.S. I just thought I am not a liberrr sorry my bad.

[one love]

For all the libertarians out there do you support legalizing all drug use?
Arguement being stop fighting the endless war on drugs and put the money into rehab. Yet if indepedent people are legally making drugs and selling them in stores it will never end either because it will be the biggest legal buisness ever. I also wonder how many places will be robbed that have narcotics? I do agree rehab is a much better solution but I would love insight from those who support legalizing drugs. Or the opposite those that feel it is the wrong move.

I support it. Several main reasons.

1. The laws don't work, can't work, and cost more than they help. Bottom line is people are going to do drugs. Culturally, we're hedonists, and we're going to ingest substances that alter our moods to our liking, whether it is legal or not. Laws don't stop it; if they did, they would've already. We're more than 20 years past "just say no", and the only "no" in sight is the end of drug use. Meanwhile, tens of thousands of police officers and criminal justice workers, jails, jailers, jail builders, administrative personnel, benefits personnel, patrol car mechanics, uniform cleaners .... you get the picture .... are making their lives and livings from the demand for their work that exists almost solely because of a futile criminal drug code. All that stuff costs us lots and lots of money, and it simply does not work. It doesn't even get close to working. If we quadrupled the efforts, it wouldn't make a dent. People are using drugs undetected more than the system can ever hope to catch; those who are caught are being processed in and out of the overburdened albatross that is the system like a revolving door. Long punishment for drug uses are so dismally ineffective that most states have decided that to build new prisons and jails to house them simply isn't worth it. But, they've also decided that there IS an optimum level of enforcement that can be justified as a revenue-grabber and politically powerful sword. The only winners in the war on drugs are those controlling the criminal justice system.

2. Our nation's drug problem is a public health issue first and foremost, to the extent it is a political issue at all. Our policy should not be punishment based, but treatment based. Treatment is far more effective as a prevention and cessation tool than jail. One of the most notoriously easy places to score dope is jail. I know .... I've represented several people on contraband charges over the years. Meanwhile, drug recovery programs work. Judges require probationers and prisoners to go through them. They work as well as any other medical treatment works when a patient wants to be well. If the patient wants to be sick, nothing will stop them from doing what makes them sick.

3. The most popular drugs in America are alcohol and nicotine. They kill far more than all of the controlled substances combined. Their social effects are far more pervasive than that of controlled substances. Yet, the government makes such revenue from sales of beer and cigarettes that government cannot afford to wean itself. If government must avail itself of benefits in the drug trade ---- which it now does through justifying the existence of an overcostly criminal justice system ---- it could do so by decriminalizing the use of these substances and taxing the living daylights out of them. It would also eliminate almost totally the culture of violence that courses through the poor, urban communities where drug trade is a huge force in gang power struggles. Why? Because Wal-Mart would be selling weed and Proctor & Gamble would be making crystal meth; you wouldn't have babies exposed to meth labs in mobile homes and you wouldn't have gunfights in the streets (nearly so much as you have now) because the "bootleggers" would be out of business.

4. My crazy conspiracy theory reason (and laugh if you will, but this is my conviction): I firmly believe that our government is content to keep black people poor and in shackles, and that it benefits to a great degree from poor whites in the same position. I also believe that it wants to keep drugs illegal, to maintain the cycle of violence, crime, lack of education and the general downbeating of the black race by jailing a disproportionately high percentage of black men. We've replaced the plantation with the prison. High numbers of government-dependent black people are insurance for big-government bureaucrats to stay in power. Its a twisted version of Brave New World, but it is real. Families are dissolved, government is the big ol' teat that comes to the rescue, and a significant portion of the population is devoted to it and will remain true to it as it grows fatter and fuller from their own misery only to feed it back to them.

Thank you dolfan that is what I was looking for. I really agree with a lot of what you said. The war on drugs will never end but ever study says that treatment is the answer and yes it would kill th "ghettos" way to easy money, murder and very dangerous gangs that now are nation wide in some cases.
I have a question, where would they be sold? I mean if an addict would rob his mother for money what will stop and addict from robbing a convenient store? I would not want to be the one selling any drugs behind the counter, then you would have large amounts being robbed and stolen so the criminal income could attempt to stay alive. Just curious what you think about this, what would be a safe way to sell the drugs?

[Full Quiver]

It's not that I want drugs legalized but that under liberty the government nor anyone else has the right to tell you what to do to yourself. Liberty for all should go for the one that chooses to use drugs. Making it legal would probably end the black market and keep pushers away from elementary schoolers.

[Pastor Bill]

It's not that I want drugs legalized but that under liberty the government nor anyone else has the right to tell you what to do to yourself. Liberty for all should go for the one that chooses to use drugs. Making it legal would probably end the black market and keep pushers away from elementary schoolers.

You're right, it's worked so well to curb underage drinking and smoking

"We can't do anything about it, so let's call it OK and hope that will curb the problems." Yeah Right

Isn't that what we've done with sex? "don't teach them it's wrong, just make sure they're safe"

Hey here's an idea, why don't we just continue to come together not accepting this as OK, and pushing it from our neighborhoods, it's working in alot of areas, it just requires people to commit to the work rather than sitting back and coming up with new ways to compromise so we can feel better about it.

[MacUser]

Zip zero nadda. Nuff Said.

[RamboPreacher]

can morality be legislated?

[Pastor Bill]

can morality be legislated?

No but immorality can be normalized by legislation

[Full Quiver]

RamboPreacher wrote:
can morality be legislated?


No but immorality can be normalized by legislation

I'll allow you to answer this.

You're right, it's worked so well to curb underage drinking and smoking Rolling Eyes

Legislation has not curbed underage drinking, smoking, or drug use. You are quite wrong.
In my opinion parents who use for the most part set the example for children. My parents and family for the most part never smoked, drank alcohol, or used illegal drugs. Using those things NEVER crossed my mind as a child, teenager, or adult.

BTW, are you saying that drinking and smoking are immoral? How's that work among your congregation?

[Brian]

Can anyone say exposure?!! I can say first hand that exposing the dirty underbelly of drug life, shining a light on it (if you will) literally, will curb a HUGE number of drug dealers from being able to accomplish there goal of selling dope for a quick buck. Make it more difficult, not easier, for the dealer to push his stuff. Lets face it, we all know where the bad areas of our towns are. We all know where not to go after dark. SO LETS LIGHT IT UP! I say take practical common sense use of the money raised for the war on drugs instead of lining the pockets of the lodal governement officials.

This is just a simple idea I have had about making it harder to hide in the dark. You've all seen those road crews that sometimes work overnight fixing or building new roads. They have those HUGE halogen lights with the generators on them so they can literally turn night into day. I say set those up, along with police presence, and shine the light on the dark spots of our communities. It sounds like a simple thing huh. Well, I can tell you this, at least where I come from, the drug dealers like to hide in the shadows. They blend in with there enviorment, stealthy, sneaky. I've been there, seen them, walked beside them, hide in the same dark to escpace the "man". People hide in the alleyways and side roads and pop out when they see a car passing by or a guy walking up or down the street at 3 in the morning. A drug deal can go down in literally a few seconds and most people would be none the wiser. If our communities will take there head out of the sand and accually do something together then maybe we could see some results....even if just a few.

Sure there are problems with this idea, heck, tell me an idea that doesnt have its down side? But its a start. I know that people can just sell drugs in a different manner. Take it to the homes, go inside like alot of the upper class users do. But it will definately put a dent in the plans of the average street dealer because he wont feel safe in what he thinks is his enviorment.

There are huge amounts of money being wasted in the war on drugs that can pay for new jobs to man the lights, be trained as armed guards,or just add a honest human presence with video cameras in the areas that are run by the drug dealers.Take back our towns. If you have a twenty man stong alliance patroling the neighborhood along with small scale news media video cameras, armed guards, dogs that will certainly cut back on the presence of dealers lurking in the dark. Not to mention the fear they would put in the users of not feeling they can slip in and out unnoticed. Most users dont want to be seen. Most users are not the scum underbelly homeless theiving robbers in our areas. Most users are folks just like you and me, and they dont want the exsposure.

Of course there is a safety risk to consider but there is already a risk! The risk of losing our kids to the game. And trust me, the risk of not doing something is far greater than the risk of doing it. There are lots of people out of work,...put them to work! Not vigalanty justice but a presence that cant be ignored.

Look, I've been there. I know what goes on in the street. I use to be the guy walking up and down the road, waiting of an opportunity to be out of the polices eye to score a quick fix from a guy standing on the street corned. I can drive to certain areas KNOWN for drug dealing and have drugs in seconds. Something is wrong with that. It shouldnt be that easy. There should be fear that I would be exsposed, on camera, photo, eyewitness, something. But there is nothing. The drug dealers rule the night, I say light it up!

[Brian]

Of course I dont believe that my ideas above are the complete solution. You must change the heart of the man before you can change what he does. Thats where the church comes in..........oh yea, we havent done that too well have we?

[Pastor Bill]

RamboPreacher wrote:
can morality be legislated?


No but immorality can be normalized by legislation

I'll allow you to answer this.

You're right, it's worked so well to curb underage drinking and smoking Rolling Eyes

Legislation has not curbed underage drinking, smoking, or drug use. You are quite wrong.
In my opinion parents who use for the most part set the example for children. My parents and family for the most part never smoked, drank alcohol, or used illegal drugs. Using those things NEVER crossed my mind as a child, teenager, or adult.

BTW, are you saying that drinking and smoking are immoral? How's that work among your congregation?

Not sure exactly what you are disagreeing with here? you have me a little confused, if you hadn't noticed I was being sarcastic.

[dolfan]

Brian, do you really want to treat drug-dealing areas like we want to treat the U.S.-Mexican border?? Philosophically, do you want government to simply enlarge its footprint in another way on top of what it already does? Seems like the proposition just gets more and more costly and top-heavy, with no real idea of how it would succeed. Practically More money gets tossed, more power gets exerted, and nothing is helped. Most deals happen inside, by the way.