Jude 2

Hey Guys,

It seems, unfortunately, I have lost my previous research and sources that cited evidence that the ancients had various methods and means of making both fermented and unfermented wine.

Albeit, I have discovered essentially the same information, and much, much, more, confirming my position that the ancients had means of producing unfermented wine and commonly diluted both fermented and unfermented wine. It is a long read, but a worthwhile one for those desiring a studious understanding of the issue from all sides.

I thought it would be a good reference for ministers especially.
Here is a quote from the chapter linked below:

This chapter aims at ascertaining whether the preservation of grape juice in its unfermented state was possible or impossible in Bible times. Our investigation will show that the ancients were far more knowledgeable in the art of preserving fruits and wines than generally presumed.

This chapter is divided into two parts. The first considers the methods used by the ancients to preserve fruits and wines in general and the second, the methods used to prevent the fermentation of grape juice in particular. ...

See HERE for more information

Did that watered down, unfermented grape juice split the old wineskins Jesus spoke of?

What I am wondering: Is the unfermented watered down wine considered "strong drink" which the Bible tells us in two specific occasions to use.

1st, My car wouldn't start this morning. One of the men of the church is on the way to get me now. That's why I'm posting so close to service time.

Pastor Gary wrote:Did that watered down, unfermented grape juice split the old wineskins Jesus spoke of?

Probably not, at least not in that condition (unfermented).
I did admit that they also used fermented wine.

The article is very informative and covers a multiplicity of methods and approaches, even citing various ancient writings.

I like Welches. had some for breakfast yesterday.

Do you think that the wine Jesus miracuously produced at the wedding was fermented or unfermented?

If it was as good as they said it was, it was fermented.

RamboPreacher wrote:I like Welches. had some for breakfast yesterday.

Me too!

PastorDaniel wrote:Do you think that the wine Jesus miracuously produced at the wedding was fermented or unfermented?

Personally, I do not believe Jesus provided a fermented drink. Either it was strictly non fermented or sufficiently diluted so as to be virtually non fermented, or something.

I'm holding off on any further details here, 'cause I wanna reply to dolfan as well.

dolfan wrote:If it was as good as they said it was, it was fermented.

See, though, for me that is part of the problem with believing it was fermented, or at least undiluted.

If, as many say, it was fermented wine and the gathered crowd had drunk everything on hand ('well drunk' the Scripture called it) and Christ supplied them with more, even better fermented wine, then he becomes complicit in their drunkenness. Which, btw, Christians universally believe to be sinful, since (per Galatians five, among others) a drunkard will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Would Jesus be complicit in their drunkenness, really? How is He responsible for people's overconsumption? Would we think the same thing of anyone who ate greedily when He fed the multitudes?? That sort of makes the miracle at the wedding in Cana more of a trick to get them to stop drinking, at least it seems that way to me to analyze it that way. I know you don't believe that, nor do I. You have to superimpose any consumption at all as being sinful, drunken consumption in order to reach that conclusion about Cana, and that (whether fermented wine was made at Cana by Jesus) is the ultimate issue here isn't it?

We've been around this discussion before, and you know I respect your views, so please don't take my comments/questions as a dig. I'm just being a little playful with my comment about the good taste of the Cana wine. I know you won't take it that way, but thought it deserved saying. When all's said and done, I'm all for teetotalers teetotaling for reasons such as yours.

Does someone getting drunk once or twice...even three times make them a "drunkard" or an Alcoholic?

Many people have been drunk a time or two and are not "drunkards." It is very common for people to celebrate special occaisions, get a little typsy(drunk) and still get up the next morning, go to work, and never drink again until the next wedding or very special occaision.

What is a drunkard? What is a Revler?

Just a quick disclaimer...before anyone gets the wrong idea...I'm not pro-alcohol....I'm pro-Bible and walking in the light as I covenanted to do so many years ago.

I'm a truth seeker and I don't want to accept what anyone says unless it is SOLIDLY backed up by the Word...Not Tradition or opinion.

PastorDaniel wrote:Just a quick disclaimer...before anyone gets the wrong idea...I'm not pro-alcohol....I'm pro-Bible and walking in the light as I covenanted to do so many years ago.

I'm a truth seeker and I don't want to accept what anyone says unless it is SOLIDLY backed up by the Word...Not Tradition or opinion.

AMEN! Don't drink, never have, and don't encourage it... HOWEVER: when we feel it so necessary to support our opposition to drinking that we try to explain away history and the whole of scripture by some convoluted attempt to de-ferment Jesus' miracle, we look like a bunch of flat-earth, holocaust-denying, tin-foil-hat wearing rubes.

(I mean that as no offense to any individual here or elsewhere.)

I get ticked off when people say that the Bible teaches NOT to drink.

BUt if there are scriptures that say to get or give "strong drink" (and Poimen "strong drink" can in NO WAY be considered "diluted") YOU CAN NOT say the Bible teaches total abstinence.

It is not an issue of wanting to justify drinking, since I do not drink.

It is an issue of people ignoring their Bible.