religion

[Full Quiver]

Please enlighten me.

I believe we were all taught that the pilgrims left Great Britain for the New Land in hopes of religious freedom. From my understanding the state religion in the UK was Anglican aka the Church of England. I know the pilgrims were oppressed by the king to be a part of his church and practice its beliefs but I do not think that "religions" such as Islam and Eastern faiths were a part of this equation. I understand the conflict to be more about Christian practice, government, and discipline (denominationalism) and freedom to be something other than Anglican than to be Muslim or Hindu.



Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


With the pilgrims reasoning in mind coupled with the first amendment couldn't we discern that when our forefathers used the word religion they actually were speaking of differing views in the practice of Christianity and were not at all including "religions" or beliefs if you will outside the plain of Christianity?

I really believe that we have turned their word religion into an all encompassing word to include false gods and idol worship. James said true religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. I know that Paul spoke of the Jew's religion but I really believe that the Pilgrims and the king as well as the forefathers wrestled with freedom of the Christian's religion.

It seems to me that if this is so and can be proven through historical writings then we could put a stop to alot of the political correct garb concerning faith and worship in this country.

Any comments?

[A2JGirl]

I really believe that we have turned their word religion into an all encompassing word to include false gods and idol worship. James said true religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

I will just really quickly comment on this portion, and you are absolutely correct. I used to say that cliche, "Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship", but a former pastor of mine pointed me to the scripture that you refer to. So now, I say that it is both! A pure relationship with Jesus makes for pure religion.

[Jennifer Smith]

Yes, what you have said is true, A2J. Also, using that same scripture, Jesus allluded to false or defiled religion. I think of the type of religion that the Pharisees had, a "religious" spirit, that has nothing to do with God.

I would define religion as man's attempt to draw near to God.
If our "attempt" is sincere and free from superficial or vain motives, then it is "pure" (though we can never be 100% pure, our hearts are deceiftful and we do not fully know them). The "religion" of the Pharisees was often motivated by the desire for honor from men. It was defined by works and traditions of men. It was not a pure attempt to draw near to God, it was steeped in pride, will-worship, and the attainment of self-righteousness.

In any case, there is still a somewhat negative connotation to the word in our culture. Perhaps because of "religious" people, or just people's own ambivalence about religion, distorted religion, or the things of God. I think it is great to define it the way you have, as long as the people you are addressing understand what you mean when you say "religion."

Of course we know religion isn't earning our way, or claiming our right to God. It is simply a plea for grace and the life of Christ working in us each day, something we receive humbly and with thankfulness.

[TW]

–noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
—Idiom9. get religion, Informal. a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.

The founding fathers were well aware that other religious groups outside of Christianity existed. They had knowledge of Islam (Mohammedism) from the crusades and they were also aware of the Jewish faith. The words of the Constitution are for all of the different religions of the world, not just Christianity.


TW

[Full Quiver]

In all sincerity and respect TW, can you back that statement up with documented fact. I have never heard of Adams, Jefferson, Washington, etc. speaking for freedom to worship other gods. In fact what I find is other religions being persecuted because they were not legal. tell me, would have Wicca survived in Salem?

[Mole_J]

Of course they knew of Islam. There may have been thousands of Muslims in the US during the forming of the nation. Most of them slaves. Thomas Jefferson followed his idol, John Locke, and demanded recognition of the religious rights of the "Mahamdan," the Jew and the "pagan." This is from the Library of Congress about the founding fathers and Islam.

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0205/tolerance.html


As a side note you can read Thomas Jefferson's Bible here
He went through the Bible and cut out any mention of the miracles and signs or declarations of Jesus' divinity.

[TW]

Danny,
May I suggest that you go to:

http://www.rsiss.net/religinamerica/bkcolonialamca.html

It is a review of the book;

Religion in Colonial America
by Jon Butler
Religion in American Life
edited by Jon Butler and Harry S. Stout
Oxford University Press, 2000
157 pgs
ISBN 0-19-511998-3

Read the entire review, it is quite enlightening. Colonial America was a diverse patchwork of religious cultures.

As for Salem, there is no evidence for a coven of Wicca in Salem. The Witch Trials were sparked by a small group of young girls that were trying to divert attention from their own bad behavior. It quickly developed into a way for some people to settle personal grudges against other people in the community. All you had to do was claim that they were a witch. Under Puritanical law the accusation itself was proof of guilt. If you did not confess and allow the "evil spirit" to be exorcised you were put to death.


TW

[Pastor Bill]

In all sincerity and respect TW, can you back that statement up with documented fact. I have never heard of Adams, Jefferson, Washington, etc. speaking for freedom to worship other gods. In fact what I find is other religions being persecuted because they were not legal. tell me, would have Wicca survived in Salem?

This is correct, while it is promoted as "Religious Freedom" we talked about this in a class I took in college, the pilgrims didn't want freedom, they wanted their rules. Most took it as an opportunity to set up communities of believers and run out those that didn't play by their rules. (often more legalistic than the CoGoP ever was, and often those in authority eventually were corrupted and used that authority for non-religious reasons)

In combining together they had to reach some middle ground, so they did eventually get to combined religious freedom, but individual communities/states still held more power, and often did dictate religion as well.

[Full Quiver]

I never said the forefathers were ignorant of worldly religions nor did I say there was a Wiccan group in Salem. I said if there were a Wiccan in Salem they would not have survived. So much for "religious" freedom.

tell me, would have Wicca survived in Salem?

[forestwalker]

Any comments?

"The Pilgrims" and "the Founding Fathers" ain't the same thing.

[Full Quiver]

Did I say they were Forest walker?

Can we have a discussion or are we going to continue to put words in my mouth?

[forestwalker]

Did I say they were Forest walker?

Can we have a discussion or are we going to continue to put words in my mouth?

Uh...okay.

This presumes that they had the same (or a similar) definition of "religion" in mind, no?

With the pilgrims reasoning in mind coupled with the first amendment couldn't we discern that when our forefathers used the word religion they actually were speaking of differing views in the practice of Christianity and were not at all including "religions" or beliefs if you will outside the plain of Christianity?

As Mole_J correctly pointed out, though, we'd be much better off looking at Locke's thought than the Pilgrims'.

[TW]

Danny,, I can see forestwalker's point here. The way in which you phrased your statement could easily be construed to mean that you were equating the Pilgrims with the term forefathers. I don't believe this is exactly what you had in mind, but it could be read that way.

Now to the topic of this discussion, and please correct me if I'm wrong. Your stance is that when the framers of the Constitution used the word "religion" they were referring only to those of the Christian faith. That through the years the word has been expanded to include non-Christian beliefs. Is this a fair assessment of your position?

In your initial post you started by citing the schism between the Puritans and the Anglican Church ( and it nominal head, The King of England). Similar divisions existed with a number of sects throughout England and Europe. Yes these were doctrinal differences, however they also recognized that under a state controlled church they would probably not be allowed to practice their beliefs. They would have to conform to the State Church. The Anglican Church and the King wanted all Englishmen to be under the church's sway and applied great pressure upon any that was not a member of the church. The King viewed the population of the English colonies as being Englishmen. While the distance from England did give some relief from the pressures of the King, and more latitude to practice their religion unhindered, the threat of a State Religion was always present.

Because they had been forced to become tolerant of each other's beliefs in order to unite against a common foe (the King) when the time came to write the Constitution they insured that the government would not be allowed to establish a State Church. In so doing they had to insure that every person had the right to practice their religion unimpeded by the government. As long as you did not violate the rights of another you were free to follow what ever religion you choose.

The Constitution reflects many Christian values, and that is to be expected, because it was for the most part written by Christians. It is based upon tolerance for the views of each other. The problem that we face today is that some people are not tolerant of any religious view. They continue to push for laws that reduce your ability to practice your faith. Their goal is to make any religious activity illegal. They demand that we be tolerant of them while they do not have to be tolerant of us. As long as we allow this to occur we will have the problem of "political correctness" to deal with.


TW

[valley]

I believe the word religion applies equally to all the world's religions. In the United States one has the right to believe and freely practice their faith. With the understanding that once a treaty is ratified, it becomes the law of the land. Thus, the rationale of the founders can be gleened from early treaties. The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that the government of the United States of America was not founded upon the Christian religion.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

It was signed in 1796 and ratified in 1797.

Further, through various acts of Congress, the defintion of religion in the first amendment has been defined to include all religions.

[Full Quiver]

Yes TW that is what I was trying to say.

Each colony and therefore state had a state denomination and the Constitution did not outlaw such. The Constitution guarantees that the US Congress shall make no laws concerning such but states do have the individual authority to if they wish.