The Baby & The Bath Water
Posted: March 19th, 2008, 1:39 am
HEALING SHELTER MINISTRIES #123a Re-Written 19MAR08 http://groups.msn.com/AHealingShelter/welcome.msnw
No Wonder—Page One: The Baby & The Bath Water
by dave c
I frequently hear Protestant and Evangelical pastors teaching from local pulpits and through national radio ministries that God does not perform miracles anymore. I assume these men are not including the salvation experience, itself, as a miraculous “born again/new creation” spiritual event that has ceased, but sometimes I’m not sure of even that. Basically this theological position maintains that only Jesus and His original apostles were empowered by the Holy Spirit to perform all manner of miracles as described in Holy Scripture; or, in a more expanded view, that only the first generation Church was witness to such events. The idea is that First Century Christians did not have the New Testament as a doctrinal anchor for their faith, and so God gave miraculous powers to the initial leadership as authentication of their calling and commission. Once the New Testament was canonized (written down and closed to change), these miracles were no longer needed, so they “dried-up.” Some obvious problems, of course, include the fact that the Bible mentions more than just the main 12, 13, or 14 apostles (depending on whether Judas, Matthias, and/or Paul are on the sanctioned list)—such as James brother of Jesus, Barnabas, Andronicus, Junias, and Silas—and the New Testament canon wasn’t established, i.e., closed, until the Fourth Century AD.
Amazingly, First Corinthians 13:8-10 [Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears (NIV)] are often used out of context as the key verses upon which to base the opinion that God no longer personally and directly intervenes in the natural order of earthly lives through the dispersing of particular gifts of the Holy Spirit to individual believers (such as the gifts of tongues, prophesy, healing, etc.). It is felt that since the New Testament is perfected (in the sense of being completed), we now have full access to knowledge through God’s written word, and as a consequence prophecies and tongues have been stilled. How, then, are we to view verse 13:8d, “where there is knowledge, it will pass away”? Following this reasoning, we must also assume that knowledge has ceased.
Let’s take a look at the Twelfth Chapter of First Corinthians: 4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. ...27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles [and in Ephesians 4:11 Paul adds evangelists and pastors to this list of “church service offices”], also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret? 31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way (NIV).
At this point Chapter Thirteen begins, but we should remember that the chapter and verse designations were imposed upon Scripture—they were not part of the original transcripts: 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing (NIV). If we are to understand that verses 8-10 are an indication that tongues and prophecy have ceased...should we also throw out understanding, knowledge, faith, benevolence, and sacrifice as discussed in verses 1-3? The absurdity is obvious. In context we know that Paul is teaching all believers that no matter what we do “in the name of Christ,” if we act without love it amounts to dead works of the flesh (ref. Mt 7:21-27). In his First Letter to the Corinthians Paul was categorically addressing problems within the worship services, the sacraments, and with daily living being conducted in a disorderly fashion. These problems included baptism (chap.1), discipleship (chap. 3), judgment (chap. 4-6), marriage (7), employment (9), communion (10&11), and spiritual gifts (12-14).
If we accept that just because there were, and are, some abuses and misunderstandings regarding baptism, discipleship, judgment, marriage, working, and communion within the Church individually and universally—that is far from justification for no longer pursuing those God ordained activities. We should also be willing to accept that all of God’s miraculous gifts from the Holy Spirit are available to the 21st Century Church...they are not just a part of our history. Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows (Ja 1:16-17; NIV). ...God's gifts and his call are irrevocable (Ro 11:29; NIV). Amen.
No Wonder—Page One: The Baby & The Bath Water
by dave c
I frequently hear Protestant and Evangelical pastors teaching from local pulpits and through national radio ministries that God does not perform miracles anymore. I assume these men are not including the salvation experience, itself, as a miraculous “born again/new creation” spiritual event that has ceased, but sometimes I’m not sure of even that. Basically this theological position maintains that only Jesus and His original apostles were empowered by the Holy Spirit to perform all manner of miracles as described in Holy Scripture; or, in a more expanded view, that only the first generation Church was witness to such events. The idea is that First Century Christians did not have the New Testament as a doctrinal anchor for their faith, and so God gave miraculous powers to the initial leadership as authentication of their calling and commission. Once the New Testament was canonized (written down and closed to change), these miracles were no longer needed, so they “dried-up.” Some obvious problems, of course, include the fact that the Bible mentions more than just the main 12, 13, or 14 apostles (depending on whether Judas, Matthias, and/or Paul are on the sanctioned list)—such as James brother of Jesus, Barnabas, Andronicus, Junias, and Silas—and the New Testament canon wasn’t established, i.e., closed, until the Fourth Century AD.
Amazingly, First Corinthians 13:8-10 [Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears (NIV)] are often used out of context as the key verses upon which to base the opinion that God no longer personally and directly intervenes in the natural order of earthly lives through the dispersing of particular gifts of the Holy Spirit to individual believers (such as the gifts of tongues, prophesy, healing, etc.). It is felt that since the New Testament is perfected (in the sense of being completed), we now have full access to knowledge through God’s written word, and as a consequence prophecies and tongues have been stilled. How, then, are we to view verse 13:8d, “where there is knowledge, it will pass away”? Following this reasoning, we must also assume that knowledge has ceased.
Let’s take a look at the Twelfth Chapter of First Corinthians: 4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. ...27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles [and in Ephesians 4:11 Paul adds evangelists and pastors to this list of “church service offices”], also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret? 31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way (NIV).
At this point Chapter Thirteen begins, but we should remember that the chapter and verse designations were imposed upon Scripture—they were not part of the original transcripts: 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing (NIV). If we are to understand that verses 8-10 are an indication that tongues and prophecy have ceased...should we also throw out understanding, knowledge, faith, benevolence, and sacrifice as discussed in verses 1-3? The absurdity is obvious. In context we know that Paul is teaching all believers that no matter what we do “in the name of Christ,” if we act without love it amounts to dead works of the flesh (ref. Mt 7:21-27). In his First Letter to the Corinthians Paul was categorically addressing problems within the worship services, the sacraments, and with daily living being conducted in a disorderly fashion. These problems included baptism (chap.1), discipleship (chap. 3), judgment (chap. 4-6), marriage (7), employment (9), communion (10&11), and spiritual gifts (12-14).
If we accept that just because there were, and are, some abuses and misunderstandings regarding baptism, discipleship, judgment, marriage, working, and communion within the Church individually and universally—that is far from justification for no longer pursuing those God ordained activities. We should also be willing to accept that all of God’s miraculous gifts from the Holy Spirit are available to the 21st Century Church...they are not just a part of our history. Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows (Ja 1:16-17; NIV). ...God's gifts and his call are irrevocable (Ro 11:29; NIV). Amen.