Jude 2

Prosperity/WOF is an abomination. They pimp Jesus for their own greed.

Okay ..... where's he been all this time?? I'm sure there are reams and streams of Piper condemning the whole WOF movement. But, where's this kind of straight talk, this kind of prophetic judgment (and doubtless that is what he's giving here), so visibly and so emphatically --- where has it been?? I've seen and heard people from Hanegraaff to Creasy stand flat footed and call this mess what it is in forthright terms. I've seen others whom we respect pussyfoot around it and use the common platforms of WOF to simply deliver their own message without simply making a slight turn to their neighbors and say, "And, what you're doing is idolatry and you are not His." I've seen the likes of people I personally hold in high esteem: Franklin Graham, Charles Stanley, John Maxwell, and more, more, more share the stages with these idolaters (and that's not my epithet, but Piper's very apt description) and smile --- not directly and explicitly promoting the message of the WOF powerhouses but implicitly and indirectly legitimizing them with their very presence, all for the consideration of some air time of their own on those same powerhouses.

Seems to me that this would be a good time for them to speak up. Here's why I say that. Barack Obama's pastor has been rightly hammered for his poisonous words. There's political anger because a man who's running for president would not disavow the pastor, but that's beside my point. Christians are more put out with what we see as a very un-Christian use of the pulpit to promote Wright's political agenda. But, really we've probably given little mental notice that John Hagee, who endorsed John McCain, is as poisonous as Rev. Wright albeit in a completely different way. Now, again, this is not about the endorsements nor the candidates, so my point isn't about McCain. Hagee is a WOF'er and relies heavily on both TBN and INSP to make himself wealthy. He's injected himself into the campaign with an endorsement. However we feel about McCain, isn't the first obligation to the kingdom? Shouldn't we expect the voices of those whom we look to for clarity and vision to say SOMETHING about Hagee's own poison?? And, if we haven't thought about him in those terms now, (a) shouldn't we begin to and (b) what does that say about us (me, included) and especially our leaders in the faith for not having made it a point already?? I'm wondering why none of the Christian voices who speak about such things on the most public platforms don't say that Hagee is a charlatan specifically because of his WOF views. I know why. There's too much invested, too much to lose, too much at stake to say anything.

So, Tracy, and everyone else, I ask this: Piper's right. He's spoken, and the video is a powerful, impactful one IMO. Where are the Stanleys, Grahams, and others?? Ray Comfort, you want everyone to reject the "God-shaped-hole-in-your-heart" evangelism and lay down the law as a bridge to the Gospel; will you name names about the WOF'ers? Or, is your ministry too reliant on TBN to make waves?

If WOF is the evil, the poison, the false gospel that many recognize it to be, where is the voice of Godly judgment against it among those whom evangelicals consider leaders? So far, I'm counting 1. If I'm missing the boat, out of the loop, whistling in the rain or whatever, somebody show me, please. I'm begging to be wrong about it.

Tracy wrote:http://purgatorio1.com/?p=633

Because we generally deal with estremes someitmes it is difficult to find the middle ground and seperate the good from the bad, the real from the false and the truth of somethings from the lies and misrepresentation of the Word.

I have no disagreement to the feeling of distain toward the extreme presentation of the gospel.

Having worked in all the countries that John Pieper mention, I do feel that I can share a few things from a perspective that others cannot.

John Piper makes a statement and I will put forth the extreme of this that I hear constantly and its misrepresentation has had a horrifying effect on a majority of the third world.

" That the Christian Church would be marked by suffering for Christ."

Now I believe this statement to be true, and it is certinally played out more in some areas than other.

But here is the exttreme. In most diveloping world The Catholic church has used this concept to the extreme. It had kept nations in bondage, kept people in extreme poverty, which has forced ten's of thousands of children on the streets sniffing rugby. Tens of thousands of girls as young as 6 to the streets in prostitution.

The senerio that I have heard to many times to recount generally goes as such.

" Jesus is so angry for what had happened to him on the cross, It is only the love of the " Mother Mary ", that can appease Him, so our appeals must be toward her.. But the more we suffer in this life, through our sickness, the more we are like him in our poverty, then the closer we are to Him and the more He will have compassion on us.

It is not our suffering, our sickness, our poverty, nor is it our weallth, family heritage or good fortune that brings us closer to God. It is the precious blood that He shed so freely on the cross that has brought us into a right standing, relationship with Him.

It is when we become swayed by the extremes that we see destruction.

But before we condem those in developing conutries from accepting the message that they don't have to live in povery, they don't have to watch their babies die from dease, their children were born to have a better life, God had a divine desteny for thier lives. God does not want them to eat off the garbage dumps. Before we do that we better check to see how much we placed in the offering plate the last time a mission offering was received.

I will be honest i cant stand prosperity preaching. It bothers me when preachers as parsley can find any verse to make it look like a means of financial gain or imply that if you sow your best seed that God is going to heal you, save your children and give you such financial favor. Jesus paid the price already for salvation and our healing, it does not need to be bought. It bothers me so many love to hear a gospel that is so much based on being wealthy and not living for God. Or as pastor parsley has said when asked if he was a prosperity preacher he replied" well i am not a poverty preacher" why not say I am a preacher of the gospel and reaching the lost.

any way gerald i think me and you agree very much on this topic but if someone could tell me what is "wof" i may just be having a dumb moment but could ya fill me in ?

Onelove

"WOF" simply means Word of Faith, which is the group mainly coming out of Kenneth Hagin or Kenneth Copeland. REMA is most often associated with them as their bible training center in Oklahoma. And no, I did not go to REMA.

Bless God, I went to BTI for three terms.

BTW Soulsearcher, I found a long lost photo of I think our first or second term. Your night before the photo must have been a good one, you are sure hanging on to that pole

paul wrote:BTW Soulsearcher, I found a long lost photo of I think our first or second term. Your night before the photo must have been a good one, you are sure hanging on to that pole

Maybe I had a little too much "grape juice" during the communion service. Or, most probably I had played the piano for a two-hour altar service the night before and was just plain ol' "wore out."

Before we do that we better check to see how much we placed in the offering plate the last time a mission offering was received.

If we knew that the money was actually going to the field and not to the missionaries then we would fill different about it.

Since you say the Catholics taught these poor folks that they must remain poor to be blessed by God then that makes it ok for Wof to tell these folks that they can be rich?

Hatred is listed as a work of the flesh in Galatians 5:20. He won't accomplish the righteousness of God by having a tantrum about it (James 1:20). Like the prosperity message he derides, it might sell well, for a time. But real solutions aren't found in how much emotional energy or political vitriol we can muster. You want something that doesn't fail look at the opposite of this guy's message from I Corinthians 13:8. You get nasty and in your own energy and you'll create an Ishmael project that deserves to fail. That's just the way it works. Sorry.

paul wrote:But before we condem those in developing conutries from accepting the message that they don't have to live in povery, they don't have to watch their babies die from dease, their children were born to have a better life, God had a divine desteny for thier lives. God does not want them to eat off the garbage dumps. Before we do that we better check to see how much we placed in the offering plate the last time a mission offering was received.

In other words: Jesus died to make you rich, Jesus died to make your children not die, Jesus died to make your physical life better, Gods divine destiny includes comfort happiness and welfare HERE ON EARTH.

ALL of which IS Word of FAith.

NONE of which is the Gospel or the "blood of Christ"

Any Jesus believing soul that is forced to eat from garbage dumps, has lost all his children to disease, suffers terribly from pain and affliction IS JUST AS MUCH A CHILD OF GOD -AND POSSIBLY MORESO- than ANY overweight blowhard reveling in the wealth of their own physical comfort.

ALL of Word of FAith is EXTREME: From Copelands "the biggest failure is God" to Fred K Price "the thief on the cross could have died for your sins"

fred price is so boring i dont know how anyone can watch him without getting a headache....sorry

Hey Gerald Benny Hinn is on TBN now preaching prosperity to get pledges for the TBN network, did not know if you wanted to watch


thanks for the info on WOF i truly did not know that, thanks again.

paul wrote:But before we condem those in developing conutries from accepting the message that they don't have to live in povery, they don't have to watch their babies die from dease, their children were born to have a better life, God had a divine desteny for thier lives. God does not want them to eat off the garbage dumps. Before we do that we better check to see how much we placed in the offering plate the last time a mission offering was received

[quote=gerald]Any Jesus believing soul that is forced to eat from garbage dumps, has lost all his children to disease, suffers terribly from pain and affliction IS JUST AS MUCH A CHILD OF GOD -AND POSSIBLY MORESO- than ANY overweight blowhard reveling in the wealth of their own physical comfort.

Gerald, I'll not argue with you. I would never question whether those who have suffered the things mention above are a child of God or Not. But, just because they were born in a developing country does not mean that it is God's design for them to be sick, diseased, and live in poverty.

Onelove, if you are so afraid to give in the offering becaue some missionary might use the funds, then you need to have better relations with those you give to.

If you understood the cutural concept of catholism and what it has done to these countries you would better understand my position. Recently during passion week, in the Philippines men were literly nailed to a cross, a reinactment of the crucifiction. Not strapped, but actually nailes. Other will beat themselves until blood pours out of their backs. All in oder to do pentance and show God that they are willing to "SUFFER" for atonement of their sins. Negating what Jesus has done for us on the cross. In this suffering they believe God will have more compassion on them. The church uses this to keep the people in bondage and dependant on them as their "Mother ". This also is played out in their daily suffering of poverty, disease and sickness.

This esxtreme is just as revolting to me as the other " Jesus Dies to makee you Rich". Jesus died to reconcile us to the Father.

paul wrote:

paul wrote:But before we condem those in developing conutries from accepting the message that they don't have to live in povery, they don't have to watch their babies die from dease, their children were born to have a better life, God had a divine desteny for thier lives. God does not want them to eat off the garbage dumps. Before we do that we better check to see how much we placed in the offering plate the last time a mission offering was received

[quote=gerald]Any Jesus believing soul that is forced to eat from garbage dumps, has lost all his children to disease, suffers terribly from pain and affliction IS JUST AS MUCH A CHILD OF GOD -AND POSSIBLY MORESO- than ANY overweight blowhard reveling in the wealth of their own physical comfort.

Gerald, I'll not argue with you. I would never question whether those who have suffered the things mention above are a child of God or Not. But, just because they were born in a developing country does not mean that it is God's design for them to be sick, diseased, and live in poverty.

Onelove, if you are so afraid to give in the offering becaue some missionary might use the funds, then you need to have better relations with those you give to.

If you understood the cutural concept of catholism and what it has done to these countries you would better understand my position. Recently during passion week, in the Philippines men were literly nailed to a cross, a reinactment of the crucifiction. Not strapped, but actually nailes. Other will beat themselves until blood pours out of their backs. All in oder to do pentance and show God that they are willing to "SUFFER" for atonement of their sins. Negating what Jesus has done for us on the cross. In this suffering they believe God will have more compassion on them. The church uses this to keep the people in bondage and dependant on them as their "Mother ". This also is played out in their daily suffering of poverty, disease and sickness.

This esxtreme is just as revolting to me as the other " Jesus Dies to makee you Rich". Jesus died to reconcile us to the Father.

Paul I am going to assume you have made a mistake here

when you wrote:

Onelove, if you are so afraid to give in the offering becaue some missionary might use the funds, then you need to have better relations with those you give to.

I have no problem giving to missions and do all the time, I am a little confused here.

Now the rest of yur post I really agree with I do find a lot of those problems to be at the hands of catholicism and what has happened aroud them. I do not feel it is God's will for them to suffer so much and this would be the reason so many are moved to help them with there offferings or to go there personally.
I have not been overseeas in mission work but I have family who have and I have recieved a detailed illustration of some of these places. But im sure it is nothing compared to actually going.

Full Quiver wrote:

Before we do that we better check to see how much we placed in the offering plate the last time a mission offering was received.

If we knew that the money was actually going to the field and not to the missionaries then we would fill different about it.

Since you say the Catholics taught these poor folks that they must remain poor to be blessed by God then that makes it ok for Wof to tell these folks that they can be rich?

Sorry Onelove, it was the above quote from FullQuiver not you that I responded to. I apologise.

paul wrote:

Full Quiver wrote:

Before we do that we better check to see how much we placed in the offering plate the last time a mission offering was received.

If we knew that the money was actually going to the field and not to the missionaries then we would fill different about it.

Since you say the Catholics taught these poor folks that they must remain poor to be blessed by God then that makes it ok for Wof to tell these folks that they can be rich?

Sorry Onelove, it was the above quote from FullQuiver not you that I responded to. I apologise.

no problem at least I get it now, thanks