Jude 2

When did Worship become more important than Bible??

When did "signs" become more important than the turth of the Word?

Time and again I hear people say "OH the Worship was wonderful" when the preaching and claims of the minister are extra-Biblical, propheticly false or even murderous to the divinity of Christ.

Why do Pentecostals stink this stuff up like meth addicts??

Why do we over and over accept Bad Bible teaching/preaching for the sake of an emotional buzz...as if we working ourselves into emotional overload via worship music is SOMEHOW MORE important than Bible based teachings?

For a number of years I have continued to ask and ask and ask questions people don't want to hear. From "Why do you accept a witchcraft influenced Christianity" to "Why do you esteem a man who make false prophecies left and right"

Again: Worship and signs seem to be the trump card, and the Bible is now toilet paper.

Therefore Benny Hinn can preach praying "thy will be done" is a "never ever" do and "faith destroying" AND IT"S OKAY.

Joyce Meyer can say if you don't believe Jesus was tormented in Hell you can't be saved....AND IT's OKAY.

Fred K Price can say "the thief on the cross" could have died for your sins and IT'S OKAY.

Todd Bentley can see dead people, extra-Biblical angels, claim the angel of a man who equated the word of Go to the Zodiac and IT'S OKAY.


WHY!?

Gerald Creasy wrote:When did Worship become more important than Bible??

When did "signs" become more important than the turth of the Word?
...

WHY!?

personal opinion: because some (many?) of these people don't actually know what they believe. they only think they do.

Personal reasons behind that statement; about 15 years ago, before my journey in actually understanding what it was that I believe, I too would have been taking much of these things - hook, line, and sinker. they make it sound so good. the scriptural references are there (whether used correctly or not makes little difference as some/most people don't actually look them up during the message, let alone researching the context on various levels, while the preaching is happening).

I don't actually even listen to many of these folks, but have heard them from time to time and there is a presentation style that seems to be prevalent. in making a priori statements. saying things as a matter of fact, and as an assumed fact, rather than a statement of personal belief, opinion, or even theory.

With that, of the times I have personally heard, the scripture references are used in a way that when presented; if you don't get the same thing that was presented, then you are missing it, or aren't spiritual enough.

nope, can't give examples, as mentioned this is my personal opinion, based on the little bit of observation that I have had.

With that said, I actually have to seek out the "bad" in many cases. the reason is that some of these ministers do present the Word of God/Bible very well most of the rest of the time. It is only the few and far between (that I am aware of) that continuously present their witchcraft and heretical views (based on my beliefs of what the Bible says).

pre-statement: I am not condoning or condemning any particular ministry; I do feel the need to say that I have listened to my own recorded messages and have said things that didn't come out exactly the way I had planned. it wasn't purposeful, and was not meant to be heretical, but could have been "heard" as being heretical. So, I know that there is a certain amount of that kind of thing going on as well.

example (not my own), I heard a minister mention something about the age of the earth being billions of years old. when I asked her about it, she said that she meant to say that the scientific community believes that it is billions of years old. (earth age doctrines aside) The next time she spoke, she publicly apologized for the slip.

I could say something like: "Jesus never said that He was God". is that heretical? it depends on the context. Is there a place in the Bible that specifically quotes Jesus as saying that He is God? or are we talking about a teaching that Jesus is divine and part of the tri-unity God head, a basic foundational truth to Christianity?

just as with what some will do with Scriptures, they will pluck a scripture out of its context (on many levels, not just textual), sometimes paraphrase it and then make a doctrinal stand out of it. Do we pluck out, some sound bit or snippet of what someone has said and make it a heretical statement? yes? no?, well, maybe sometimes?

GC - I do have to say that I disagree with some that would say that you are spouting hatred. I do not believe that is the context of your beliefs. I think that in fact it is out of love. a love for your fellow mankind and a special love and relationship with God that you want others to know what you believe to be truth.

hating the lies, and heresy is one thing, and I believe this to be Biblical.

hating people is another issue altogether and I do NOT believe that is what you are doing.

pre-statement: I am not condoning or condemning any particular ministry; I do feel the need to say that I have listened to my own recorded messages and have said things that didn't come out exactly the way I had planned. it wasn't purposeful, and was not meant to be heretical, but could have been "heard" as being heretical. So, I know that there is a certain amount of that kind of thing going on as well.

I'm not picking you out of a crowd RP because I too can say that I have taught and preached things that were not exactly the way I said them and through study, maturity, and other means I have learned so.

Now with that said I must ask, why were the Apostles exempt from such? Why did they ALWAYS get it right?

Full Quiver wrote:

pre-statement: I am not condoning or condemning any particular ministry; I do feel the need to say that I have listened to my own recorded messages and have said things that didn't come out exactly the way I had planned. it wasn't purposeful, and was not meant to be heretical, but could have been "heard" as being heretical. So, I know that there is a certain amount of that kind of thing going on as well.

I'm not picking you out of a crowd RP because I too can say that I have taught and preached things that were not exactly the way I said them and through study, maturity, and other means I have learned so.

Now with that said I must ask, why were the Apostles exempt from such? Why did they ALWAYS get it right?

did they always get it right? we don't have canon for the teachings of all the disciples/apostles. maybe an assumption that they did?

my point is that the Word says that the Word was written by holy men as they were moved on by the Spirit. It seems that their words were infallible when they were inspired or anointed yet when we are "anointed" we say things that are not always true.

Full Quiver wrote:my point is that the Word says that the Word was written by holy men as they were moved on by the Spirit. It seems that their words were infallible when they were inspired or anointed yet when we are "anointed" we say things that are not always true.

Ahh - I see what you are saying. Sure glad my messages aren't being canonized.

Sure glad my messages aren't being canonized.

Oh but I wish mine were worthy enough if God were to want to have them so.

Full Quiver wrote:my point is that the Word says that the Word was written by holy men as they were moved on by the Spirit. It seems that their words were infallible when they were inspired or anointed yet when we are "anointed" we say things that are not always true.

I have been struggling with the concept lately, especially when reading some of the letters of the N.T

In our church, the sermon is the main focus of our worship.


Our worship is NOT the music time.


We consider the entire service to be worship culminating in the WORD and in our time of prayer and inward looking in response to the WORD.

Gerald wrote

Todd Bentley can see dead people, extra-Biblical angels,

I've heard on many occasions Benny Hinn making the same statements. Seeing extra-Biblical angels and most frighteningly to me, receiving visions of Kathryn Kuhlman (spelling?) and Amy McPherson telling him various things depending on the time. So, Bentley isn't the only one out there saying these things. BTW has anyone ever heard of Marjoe Gortner?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marjoe_Gortner

Gerald Creasy wrote:When did Worship become more important than Bible??

You have asked several questions. Notice I am only addressing one.

The Lord must be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth.

I do not think the Importance is the correct way of asking. Can you make the Bible more important than EWorship or Worship more Important than the Bible? I don't think so.

On the day of Pentecost the New testament certainly was not more IMPORTANT than the worship. It had not been written.

The quoting of the Old Testament, and the mighty message which was preached by Peter was done after the Manifestations of the holy Ghost on the 120.

Importance is still not the best question.

Concerning the Bible, Holy Men wrote as they were moved on by the Holy Ghost. Some how these men became Holy before the Scripture was ever written. Can a man be saved without Scripture? Can there be Scripture, and men not be saved? Can a man who has no Bible Worship God? (say he is in prison). Can a man who has 100 Bibles be lost, without the Spirit, and not be able to Worship God? Certainly. The pharasees are our prime examples.

I have tried to honestly answer one of your question. It is after all the only one for which I have an answer.

If we are to worship the Lord it should be in Spirit and in Truth.

Ray

Ray

Gerald Creasy wrote:

For a number of years I have continued to ask and ask and ask questions people don't want to hear. From "Why do you accept a witchcraft influenced Christianity" to "Why do you esteem a man who make false prophecies left and right"

I believe it's simply human nature at work, history repeating itself, or whatever you want to call it. Over and over in scripture God's people were side tracked from the truth.

Jeremiah said this in chapter 5:31: "The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so."

I believe we are living in the day that Amos wrote about concerning "a famine of truth."

God is not worshiped where he is not known!

jessea wrote:I believe it's simply human nature at work, history repeating itself, or whatever you want to call it. Over and over in scripture God's people were side tracked from the truth.

Jeremiah said this in chapter 5:31: "The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so."

I believe we are living in the day that Amos wrote about concerning "a famine of truth."

God is not worshiped where he is not known!

Well said!

And even our BEST isn't good enough:

Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

I get so amazed that a little new age free form piano playing (haunting beautiful dulcet tones) working people up to tears
becomes the criteria by which a move of God is judged.

I think the better question "when did a worship service cease to be made up of BOTH the music and preaching of the word?" And the answer is "when some bright boy figured out that music done a certain way can be a bigger draw than preaching."

Gerald,
I know what your talking about. Joel Osteen is a good example. He really isn't a good preacher. A good motivational speaker maybe, but not a good preacher. But the Worship Team at his church are excellent. I can't help but think that alot of people are drawn in by this. And then they tend to overlook alot of other things cuz the worship experience was so great. Sad!