Jude 2

A Christless Pentecost

A thought provoking prophetic warning from David Wilkerson and Frank Bartleman. Somebody needs to print these out and nail them to the door in Lakeland a la Luther at Wittenburg.

Pastor Gary wrote:A Christless Pentecost

A thought provoking prophetic warning from David Wilkerson and Frank Bartleman. Somebody needs to print these out and nail them to the door in Lakeland a la Luther at Wittenburg.

I absolutely disagree with this statement.

How many of us would serve Him if He offered nothing but Himself? No healing. No success. No prosperity. No worldly blessings. No miracles, signs, or wonders

becaue he is drawing the assumption that most would not. That is the farthest thing from the truth. It is a western mind set and not applicable world wide. Where millions do serve Christ without any type of worldly possessions, in the mist of disaese and persecution.

The warning is valid, to bad the organizaton I was raised in did not understand it more clearly. So even though I sat under thousand of Church Messages conpared to a few Christ messages, somehow the message of Christ came through. Wonders of Wonders.

Just as dangerous as a Christless message is the preaching of a Powerless Christ.

I am glad to not only know Christ, but as Paul said to know Him in the fullness of His ressurection and also the fellowship of His suffering.

paul wrote:

Pastor Gary wrote:A Christless Pentecost

A thought provoking prophetic warning from David Wilkerson and Frank Bartleman. Somebody needs to print these out and nail them to the door in Lakeland a la Luther at Wittenburg.

I absolutely disagree with this statement.

You have watched the clips of Lakeland and do not see an emphasis on signs and wonders to the exclusion of Christ? Really, Paul??

Are we watching the same clips?

I will be the first one in line for real revival of repentance that turns a town and a society right-side-up with renewed passion for holiness and Christlikeness, and, as frosting on the cake, is filled with the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. I wish that was what I was seeing in Lakeland, but it is NOT.

Pastor Gary wrote:

paul wrote:

Pastor Gary wrote:A Christless Pentecost

A thought provoking prophetic warning from David Wilkerson and Frank Bartleman. Somebody needs to print these out and nail them to the door in Lakeland a la Luther at Wittenburg.

I absolutely disagree with this statement.

You have watched the clips of Lakeland and do not see an emphasis on signs and wonders to the exclusion of Christ? Really, Paul??

Are we watching the same clips?

I will be the first one in line for real revival of repentance that turns a town and a society right-side-up with renewed passion for holiness and Christlikeness, and, as frosting on the cake, is filled with the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. I wish that was what I was seeing in Lakeland, but it is NOT.

Gary you mis quoted me.....my disagreement was not about lakeland but the following statement which you failed to include......giving the impression I disagreed wit his lakeland assessment.

I absolutely disagree with this statement. Quote:

How many of us would serve Him if He offered nothing but Himself? No healing. No success. No prosperity. No worldly blessings. No miracles, signs, or wonders

I gave my reason.. Because it comes from a western mind set and is not true Word Wide, and for that matter it is just the opposite.

Personally I do not see this to be about Lakeland, Toronto, Brownsville. If you have read my post I at no time have indorsed Todd Bently. I quoted a statement from Jack hayford. And all hell was levied at me, my ministry questioned, called a lier, gutless a follower after witchcraft......my integrity questioned......and no surprise from my fellow brethern.

This is not about false doctrine, execessive abuses in the name of God. It is not about a Christless pentecost. It is about people. This last weeks or so, I have seen the old ugly attitude that I thought was gone. That of self righetousness, bigitory, hatren,mean spirited intolerance, all in the name of the church, I'm sorry in the name of Sound docrtine.....

I'll stay on the mission fields, at least I know who my attackers are there.

This fear of things getting out of hand, or people looking for the signs and wonders before Christ is the main reason some Cogop's have no revival fire at all. we dont want wild fire so please no signs and wonders at all. we all seem to forget that the thousands that had gathered in the second chapter of acts as peter preached after being filled with the Holy Ghost were gathered around that area because they heard those speaking in their own tongue, wherein they were born. i should remind folks that they thought they were drunk. when was the last time someone walked in your church and thought that you were drunk. in a lot of cases it is the signs of God that draws men to Jesus and the gospel. we are to operate in spirit and truth. in to many cogop's for years we have said we have the truth but no spirit. personaly i would rather deal with a little wild fire than no fire.

Signs follow believes and God sees to it that the TRUTH is backed up with spiritual confirmation.

This nonsense of Bentley is not truth and therefore it is NOT GOD that is manifesting His presence through signs and wonders. Bentley is a liar and deceived. He was not Spirit filled and devil possessed at the same time and by preaching that message there is NO WAY that the signs of God are going forth in his "ministry".

Paul, I hope you do not feel I am attacking you because I am not. I still am desiring very much to see those palm trees and that great California landscape that you get to enjoy at your house.

Full Quiver wrote:Signs follow believes and God sees to it that the TRUTH is backed up with spiritual confirmation.

This nonsense of Bentley is not truth and therefore it is NOT GOD that is manifesting His presence through signs and wonders. Bentley is a liar and deceived. He was not Spirit filled and devil possessed at the same time and by preaching that message there is NO WAY that the signs of God are going forth in his "ministry".

Paul, I hope you do not feel I am attacking you because I am not. I still am desiring very much to see those palm trees and that great California landscape that you get to enjoy at your house.

ya, but there are some that want to throw the baby out with the bath water. i just dont understand why there are so many people that are scared of a move of God.

dawgs10 wrote:ya, but there are some that want to throw the baby out with the bath water. i just dont understand why there are so many people that are scared of a move of God.

I think you're missing the point, or at least MY point... I am certainly not scared of a move of God --- I CRAVE a GENUINE move of God so much that I am totally unwilling to settle for cheap, rhinestone, sort-of-looks-close-enough substitute because it draws a crowd and makes people feel good. Flesh-candy is not a move of God.
Crocodile tears are not a move of God.
Waves of emotion are not a move of God.
Mystical talk about angels on the stage and gold dust is not a move of God.


A passion for holiness, repentance, deliverance from addictions and sin, communities turned right-side-up... those would be signs of a move of God for me.

paul wrote:Gary you mis quoted me.....my disagreement was not about lakeland but the following statement which you failed to include......giving the impression I disagreed wit his lakeland assessment.

My apology -- it was unintentional, and I am sorry.

paul wrote:Personally I do not see this to be about Lakeland, Toronto, Brownsville. If you have read my post I at no time have indorsed Todd Bently.

Ahhhh --- there's the root of the problem, I suspect. You are posting in a series of threads that are focused upon examining the validity of Bentley/Lakeland, so anything in the thread is read in that context.

paul wrote:I quoted a statement from Jack hayford. And all hell was levied at me, my ministry questioned, called a lier, gutless a follower after witchcraft......my integrity questioned......and no surprise from my fellow brethern.

And I took corrective actions concerning that --- I posted a notice standing with you in your integrity, removed the thread in which it was done, chastised the person who offended.... what more could I do, could I have done, to satisfy you that this matter was taken seriously and no personal attacks on you were allowed to stand?

paul wrote:This is not about false doctrine, execessive abuses in the name of God. It is not about a Christless pentecost. It is about people. This last weeks or so, I have seen the old ugly attitude that I thought was gone. That of self righetousness, bigitory, hatren,mean spirited intolerance, all in the name of the church, I'm sorry in the name of Sound docrtine.....

This is a DISCUSSION board, for the very purpose of debating, dissecting and examining things like Lakeland in community, to get differing perspectives that will help us avoid the cultic lock-step ways many of us experienced in the past. When things get out of order, I step in, or Shellie does, and we restore order and send people back to their corners. For the most part, it works.

paul wrote:I'll stay on the mission fields, at least I know who my attackers are there.

Again: what else must I do to correct that, as I felt I went to bat for you and took corrective measures.

Pastor Gary wrote:

dawgs10 wrote:ya, but there are some that want to throw the baby out with the bath water. i just dont understand why there are so many people that are scared of a move of God.

I think you're missing the point, or at least MY point... I am certainly not scared of a move of God --- I CRAVE a GENUINE move of God so much that I am totally unwilling to settle for cheap, rhinestone, sort-of-looks-close-enough substitute because it draws a crowd and makes people feel good. Flesh-candy is not a move of God.
Crocodile tears are not a move of God.
Waves of emotion are not a move of God.
Mystical talk about angels on the stage and gold dust is not a move of God.


A passion for holiness, repentance, deliverance from addictions and sin, communities turned right-side-up... those would be signs of a move of God for me.

and if we crave a genuine move of God these things will happen. the point is God will make it look however God wants it to look. we cant mainstream our churchs in such a way we leave out the manifestations. because if we experience the things you have listed there will be manifestations of the spirit. (pastor gary, i was not aiming my statements at you personaly). if someone is set free there will be waves of emotion.

dawgs10 wrote:...if someone is set free there will be waves of emotion.

Yes, and I have seen it all; laughter (the real deal, not mass-suggestion induced nonsense), weeping, jumping, running, rejoicing, dancing...

the issue, for me, is that so many are chasing these expressions/manifestations, seeking the gift and not the GIVER. It has become believers following signs, instead of signs following believers.

communities turned right-side-up

IF these revivals produced the results they claim then the towns they are held in would have been turned upside down or right side up. Holiness would be the way of life and the converts of these events would live a delivered life instead of claiming they are delivered for an evangelist and his revival's sake.

Pastor Gary wrote:It has become believers following signs, instead of signs following believers.

The nail on the head in a nutshell, bro.

I don't think it's so much 'believers following signs", but rather believers longing to be in the midst and part of a mighty outpouring of the Holy Ghost. There are some I'm sure that have traveled to Lakeland chasing signs, then there is those who have an earnest hunger for a mighty move of God.

rough_rider wrote:I don't think it's so much 'believers following signs", but rather believers longing to be in the midst and part of a mighty outpouring of the Holy Ghost. There are some I'm sure that have traveled to Lakeland chasing signs, then there is those who have an earnest hunger for a mighty move of God.

The difference you describe is too subtle for me; most of those who have traveled to Lakeland DEFINE "a mighty move of God" and "and outpouring of the Holy Ghost" not by repentance and holiness, but by visible signs and manifestations.