Jude 2

Marvin Eskew
International Director of Christian Education


Great Article can be found here.

http://cogop.org/320063.ihtml

Thanks for posting that, Billy.

I like him, he came and preached at our Men's retreat a couple years ago.

the article is good, and addresses some real issues. We've got a group similar to his "cave" group, but it's mainly ladies, but even as well as that has gone, I have still heard some outside the group feel it's a waste of time.

We also have some of this happening informally, as natural friendships develop, but that's hard to really develop when someone isn't naturally "fitting in" with a group, which is a concern as well.

Yes, thanks for sharing this. Marvin Eskew came out to a Washington St mens retreat a few years back. Probably my most favorite speaker I have heard. His temperance, personality, preaching style and depth of sharing.... I wish we would have him back.

The Scripture most often describes the people of God as family. I can’t help but wonder if the “twenty something” crowd experienced church as family and not a business, or a formal event, or whatever makes it irrelevant to them if they would not be drawn back to it. Jesus is not building an institution, He is growing His kingdom and it looks and feels like family. Church is all about relationships, not positions and programs not even sermons and lessons. What if Jesus was serious and we really are not to run our churches like businesses and corporations (Matthew 23:1-12, Mark 10:41-45)? What if the church were to become more and more organic and less and less organized? I believe I can build a solid biblical basis for such a view of church as contrasted with what is in place today

from the article popsted by Billy:

Good words, sounds great....but will never happen until the heart attitude towards others changes. Kenya and Joey in another thread said it best. Change the outer package all you want...Jesus said it best, you know the story.
Just my HO

some people don't want church to be like family because their experience with family is not good yes, it's psychology

paul wrote:but will never happen until the heart attitude towards others changes.

Am I missing something or is this article not talking about changing the heart?

DeWayneTN wrote:Am I missing something or is this article not talking about changing the heart?

that was the understanding I had after reading it, unless I missed something.

DeWayneTN wrote:

paul wrote:but will never happen until the heart attitude towards others changes.

Am I missing something or is this article not talking about changing the heart?

Me TOO. Has nothing to do with Outer Package!!

Actually I thought it was hitting it on the head exactly like Joey and Kenya were talking about.

And its coming from someone in the Int. Offices..

paul wrote:

The Scripture most often describes the people of God as family. I can’t help but wonder if the “twenty something” crowd experienced church as family and not a business, or a formal event, or whatever makes it irrelevant to them if they would not be drawn back to it. Jesus is not building an institution, He is growing His kingdom and it looks and feels like family. Church is all about relationships, not positions and programs not even sermons and lessons. What if Jesus was serious and we really are not to run our churches like businesses and corporations (Matthew 23:1-12, Mark 10:41-45)? What if the church were to become more and more organic and less and less organized? I believe I can build a solid biblical basis for such a view of church as contrasted with what is in place today

from the article popsted by Billy:

Good words, sounds great....but will never happen until the heart attitude towards others changes. Kenya and Joey in another thread said it best. Change the outer package all you want...Jesus said it best, you know the story.
Just my HO

On an organizational level, I agree, but on a local church/group level, I think this is a very valid direction and perfectly achievable goal. Then if more and more local churches hit that goal, it could change the organization eventually, but no effective change like this will come top-down.

Pastor Bill wrote:

paul wrote:

The Scripture most often describes the people of God as family. I can’t help but wonder if the “twenty something” crowd experienced church as family and not a business, or a formal event, or whatever makes it irrelevant to them if they would not be drawn back to it. Jesus is not building an institution, He is growing His kingdom and it looks and feels like family. Church is all about relationships, not positions and programs not even sermons and lessons. What if Jesus was serious and we really are not to run our churches like businesses and corporations (Matthew 23:1-12, Mark 10:41-45)? What if the church were to become more and more organic and less and less organized? I believe I can build a solid biblical basis for such a view of church as contrasted with what is in place today

from the article popsted by Billy:

Good words, sounds great....but will never happen until the heart attitude towards others changes. Kenya and Joey in another thread said it best. Change the outer package all you want...Jesus said it best, you know the story.
Just my HO

On an organizational level, I agree, but on a local church/group level, I think this is a very valid direction and perfectly achievable goal. Then if more and more local churches hit that goal, it could change the organization eventually, but no effective change like this will come top-down.

Bill, I think we are in agreement in general. My experience over the years and in different groups, is that when you have a history of being top heavy, and the feeling that big Brother is always watching and still has control ( appointments, propery, ) it is difficult to make the needed changes.

One of John Maxwells laws is the law of permission, not simply a law of silence. If and when an organization is willing to grant their people and churches permission to move forward, then and only then will it make a real impact not just locally but as a movement.

How is this permission granted. One, release the property to the churches. Give them permission to go forward and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit as they the local congregation feels led.

Allow the churches freedom to either identify or not to identify with GO.

Show that indeed the attitude has changed from the inside at the top and you will se a growth locally that would stager the mind. Again just my oponion.

The only thing is there are benefits to having the property owned by the organization if problems come up in the local church. I have seen with a couple of independent churches a split or disagreement pushing pastors and/or congregations out of facilities and the leadership could do nothing, whoever was listed on the deed as a trustee could do what they wanted.

When I was in the CoG, there was no discussion on this, that's just the way it had to be, but honestly I didn't ever see as much distrust of those in authority there either. I think it's more of an issue that there is no trust between the local churches and IO

Pastor Bill wrote:The only thing is there are benefits to having the property owned by the organization if problems come up in the local church. I have seen with a couple of independent churches a split or disagreement pushing pastors and/or congregations out of facilities and the leadership could do nothing, whoever was listed on the deed as a trustee could do what they wanted.

When I was in the CoG, there was no discussion on this, that's just the way it had to be, but honestly I didn't ever see as much distrust of those in authority there either. I think it's more of an issue that there is no trust between the local churches and IO

I understand the concern. As you know, we build church buildings in many countries. We purchase the land, we pay for all the title research which in developing countries can be a total nightmare. Then we build the building. ( with the assistance of the local members and hired crews)

The title is in wmof's name at first, ( because we laid out the cash ) I don't know if your GO lays out any cash for local buildings, if so then they are entitled to holding the title. When the pastor is set in place, the congregation becomes organized and functional the title is released to the local church. Several other reasons it is done this way ( again property is handeled differently in these countries. In the countries we operate in we are registered with the government and can l;egally hold propery is we so desired.

Even after the title is given to them, they are under no obligation to remain with WMOF, use our name, it is strickly a relationship.

To me it is a matter of trust between the local church and the General office. That is what I have seen missing over the years in many organizations. Also a feeling from the top that somehow they always know better and the ones on the local level....well, are not quite as in the know.

Could their be some unscrupiouls people take advantage ? yes. But that happend anyway.

paul wrote:The title is in wmof's name at first, then when the pastor is set in place, the congregation becomes organized and fully functional the title is released to the local church. Several other reasons it is done this way ( again property is handeled differently in these countries.

Even after the title is given to them, they are under no obligation to remain with WMOF, use our name, it is strickly a relationship.

Paul, I like that concept. I am wondering if you keep any statistics about how many of those facilities you have either built or co-built are still attached to WMOF.

All the ones we have built and co-built and released the titles back to them are still with us..Some after 10 plus years.

Of all the churches that have been pioneers by our ministers and students we have only about three that have left. All under good terms.

Some of our graduating students, which we support have went to work for other ministries with our blessing. It is and must be about relations.

This is an edited add on::::::

Gary after looking at the question let me say that some of the buildings we have built some For pastors in other organizations. They were not apart of wmof. But are in fellowship with us.