Jude 2

This man claims the church was negligent when he was injured when there was no "catcher" behind him when he fell out in the Spirit. Of course, he's suing.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... irit1.html

The document reads the church in question is Lakewind Church.

LakeWIND sounds awful close to LakeLAND to me...

I have a personal belief about this kind of thing, and have not really voiced it otherwise, but since you brought it up... (a similar thing happened at a church I used to attend)

If it really WAS the Holy Spirit, he was being influenced by, and not another spirit, and not his own psychosomatic reactions and emotionalism - then one of two things would have happened:
1. there would have been a catcher
and 2. It wouldn't matter if there was a catcher.

As to point 1 - the rebuttal might be something to the effect that we have free-will (as an Arminian), and someone that was supposed to be there wasn't obedient and chose not to be there. Answer - if God Wanted to direct the man to have an experience in "falling out", He would have made a way for this to happen without allowing harm to come to him from the experience.

Similarly for point 2 - if this was really God, and there was nobody available, in any circumstance, then the man would not have obtained any injuries and the falling would be part of the ecstatic experience of the falling.

my conclusion is severalfold:
I believe that whatever the circumstance, the man was not being directed by God to "fall out" in the spirit. It may have been another spirit. It may have been ecstatic emotionalism, it may have been what he believed was being touched by God's power, but had not been taught otherwise.

OR
It may have been God, since the man didn't die (another theology that I have discussed in another forum), adn we just don't know what that ramification, lesson, direction, circumstance, path is that God has in His intricate will for the man, the church and all involved.

RamboPreacher wrote:
Similarly for point 2 - if this was really God, and there was nobody available, in any circumstance, then the man would not have obtained any injuries and the falling would be part of the ecstatic experience of the falling.

Yep. That is true. I've always thought that if you have to have catchers, then what you have ain't the Spirit, because the Spirit won't let you get injured.

I started to post this the other day....but I thought, nah, I rag on Pentecostal excesses enough.

If I was the church, and I am only half-joking here, I'd file a third-party claim against God. Really. Here's why: The suit is frivolous. So, illustrate it by pointing out the absurdity in the suit. The guy admits that he fell out "in the spirit", as the complaint alleges. Fine, Tennessee is a state that allows contribution among joint tortfeasors; in other words, if you're 10% at fault, you're liable for 10% of the damages. So, if God caused him to fall out in the first place, seems to me He's liable for the guy's damages. If God caused the guy to fall out, then He also directed the catchers (or, else God was not only negligent, but reckless, and could be hit with punitive damages). Sure would reduce the church's liability if not eliminate it. Of course, that would get tossed but I think the whole suit may very likely get tossed with it. I find it impossible, personally, to attribute the fall itself to God and the hard landing to the catchers. Case dismissed (IMO).

OR, the guy just got overwhelmed in a frenzy where no one could predict whether he would fall out or not in a room of people doing such things (assuming, maybe wrongly, others were doing as he was doing). In that case, no foreseeable harm, no liability foul.

You don't even want me to go there on this thread. As a long time practitioner of evangelism/experiences of this sort, I have seen more than my share of the "false".

When a person has to be pushed, or otherwise directed to "fall out", it is a given that it ain't God. I have been "slain in the spirit" a few times in my life. Never had a "catcher". Most of the time I was alone in my study...just me and God. That's the best!

I have had hundreds of people "slain" in my revivals......sometimes someone "self appointed" themselves as a catcher and sometimes no one came forward.....I didn't worry about it either way. If it was God they would be fine....if not .....they deserved what they got.

dolfan....you are the real deal mr. lawyer man.

Dr. Ron wrote: If it was God they would be fine....if not .....they deserved what they got.

Very true.

Genesis 32:
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

In my honest opinion, it is a common misconception that there can be no physical affliction during a true God experience. It has been taught forever in pentecostal circles, but can it be substantiated with scripture? I truly don't think so as we can see the opposite promoted in Genesis 32. Are we to say that Jacob's experience was not real?

I have preached under the anointing until my throat and/or voice was irritated for days, I have preached and/or prayed under such an anointing that my stomach muscles were sore for days, and other similar occurrences, etc.

We are fleshly creatures and to come into contact with God for prolonged periods or unique experience does at times leave reminders.

Therefore, if someone falls in the Spirit and receives physical affliction, I am not able to unequivocally state that God wasn't involved. It is possible that I could have made the same critical judgment of Jacob's experience.

pa

I think this raises a valid point, in the style of Gerald:

Is there Biblical evidence of anyone being slain in the Spirit? And if so, did they ever fall backward?

All the evidence I've ever found talks of people falling forward when the Spirit moved -- the sign of humility, respect and submission.

Pastorables and Eager both make some valid points. However, where ever there is a "manifestation" of the spirit, there will be those who eagerly join in the emotionalism of it all. They are the ones to which I was making reference. I have seen it all.,

I too have experienced the sore muscles, throat (although learning how to properly use your voice helps there) and other physical issues....sometimes just plain exhaustion. That doesn't mean it was God's fault.....the volumn of our prayers does not necessarily mean intensitiy. That is a learned behavior. I have not done that in years.....but still have the same effectiveness. Annointing is not quantified in volumn either.

However, we are all creatures of habit and there are many things that we do in the flesh that God allows that He may not personally be initiating. For example: The loud preaching style of the average pentecostal (and many baptists for that matter) originated, not because of annointing, but rather because of the lack of sound systems. The volumn was to help people in the back hear. It became a learned behavior that was associated with annointing. I have learned that I don't need to be that demonstrative .....nor do I have the energy to be able to do that any more....especially with two services back to back.

So....there is much to be said on this subject.....wish it was all very easy...but then we wouldn't have as much fun on the computer.

Dr. Ron wrote: Annointing is not quantified in volumn either.

However, we are all creatures of habit and there are many things that we do in the flesh that God allows that He may not personally be initiating. For example: The loud preaching style of the average pentecostal (and many baptists for that matter) originated, not because of annointing, but rather because of the lack of sound systems. The volumn was to help people in the back hear. It became a learned behavior that was associated with annointing. I have learned that I don't need to be that demonstrative .....nor do I have the energy to be able to do that any more....especially with two services back to back.

You are exactly right, but we sure do know when the anointing is absent don't we? Often, the congregation does also.

Dr. Ron wrote:You don't even want me to go there on this thread. As a long time practitioner of evangelism/experiences of this sort, I have seen more than my share of the "false".

When a person has to be pushed, or otherwise directed to "fall out", it is a given that it ain't God. I have been "slain in the spirit" a few times in my life. Never had a "catcher". Most of the time I was alone in my study...just me and God. That's the best!

I have had hundreds of people "slain" in my revivals......sometimes someone "self appointed" themselves as a catcher and sometimes no one came forward.....I didn't worry about it either way. If it was God they would be fine....if not .....they deserved what they got.

dolfan....you are the real deal mr. lawyer man.

100% agree, I've experienced this personally, and as big as I am, I've hit a cement floor 3 foot from where I was standing one time, and felt like I landed on a pillow. If it's God, there isn't a need, unfortunately alot of what is seen isn't always God.

If I happen to be standing there, I might catch someone, but unless I'm praying with them, I'm generally not paying attention to what they are doing.

I did have a friend (an evangelist) one time in revival say that he didn't want anyone coming up to catch people, if it's God they don't need you, or running up to cover a woman's legs with a cover, God won't hurt you and he isn't going to leave you indecent, if you go down and your skirt goes over your head, I'm going to tell you to get up and quit acting!

EagerBeaver wrote:
Is there Biblical evidence of anyone being slain in the Spirit?

Hmmm... Ananias and Sapphira?

A2JGirl wrote:

EagerBeaver wrote:
Is there Biblical evidence of anyone being slain in the Spirit?

Hmmm... Ananias and Sapphira?