Jude 2

Karen Wheaton's Ramp is being telecast live from Hamilton, AL through this weekend. Watch some if you can. Check your local listings for GODTV.

pa

Why? If I wanted to go clubbing or get in a grungy Gothic mosh-pit type environment I could hit any number of clubs or hangouts hear near Birmingham. Unless of course the ramp has drastically changed since I was last exposed to it.

Poimen wrote:Why? If I wanted to go clubbing or get in a grungy Gothic mosh-pit type environment I could hit any number of clubs or hangouts hear near Birmingham. Unless of course the ramp has drastically changed since I was last exposed to it.

With all due respect to my friend, THE RAMP is changing young lives. I am probably going to send my son (age 6) to their drama classes soon. Karen is also in the process of building a huge Youth Camp near her home. Your opinion, although valid as your opinion, is the same one being exhibited by the main-line denominations in Hamilton. I find that sad. I watched the RAMP on television a few weeks back. It was refreshing to see the tears flowing down the faces of those youth as other youth preached with fire and passion from the stage.

Blessings,
pa

Perhaps it has changed then. It has been at least a year since I had any exposure to them.

My past exposure, as well as my Minister of Music's (a youth leader at the time) was not good (in our opinion). I hope that it has moved away from charismania, emotionalism, and practically just another dance club with a "Christian" twist (no pun intended).

I may watch a bit just to see for myself.

Poimen wrote: I hope that it has moved away from charismania, emotionalism, and practically just another dance club with a "Christian" twist (no pun intended).

These things are still there. What's the harm? Let the young people be who they are and have a little liberty. This doesn't hinder the Spirit from working during the more serious times, at least from what I have witnessed.

As a youth pastor at heart, I say that we've spent too much time through the years scolding the youth for expressing themselves. Let's not criticize them for worshipping God in their own expressions.

This is an example of my heart on the matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR7bBEBIC9g

pa

Poimen wrote:\I hope that it has moved away from charismania, emotionalism, and practically just another dance club with a "Christian" twist (no pun intended).

Just wondering: if you subtracted the "charismania and emotionalism" how would you respond to just a dance club with Christian music and the enforcement of some standards of decency and decorum?

Pastor Gary wrote:Just wondering: if you subtracted the "charismania and emotionalism" how would you respond to just a dance club with Christian music and the enforcement of some standards of decency and decorum?

Well, it probably would not be my personal choice of entertainment, but hey, if it was a nice , family friendly, Christ centered place for fun, fellowship, and entertainment, it'd probably be great. There is a similar place in Trussville we have taken the youth too, and had a blast.

But, as it is, a TBN-ish, charismatic (IMO) wanna be (semi) worldly so called "Christian youth ministry." I say mark it as being among those who walk disorderly, and avoid it.

Poimen wrote:Well, it probably would not be my personal choice of entertainment, but hey, if it was a nice , family friendly, Christ centered place for fun, fellowship, and entertainment, it'd probably be great. There is a similar place in Trussville we have taken the youth too, and had a blast.

The reason I ask is, one of my members has a desire to open a dance club like that... Christian and/or Christian-friendly music, no dirty stuff... and I (personally) have no issues with him doing that. It is, as you said, not my personal choice of entertainment, but I have seen it work as a form of an entertainment alternative.

Poimen wrote:But, as it is, a TBN-ish, charismatic (IMO) wanna be (semi) worldly so called "Christian youth ministry." I say mark it as being among those who walk disorderly, and avoid it.

I kind of agree with you on that.

Poimen wrote:But, as it is, a TBN-ish, charismatic (IMO) wanna be (semi) worldly so called "Christian youth ministry." I say mark it as being among those who walk disorderly, and avoid it.

Chris, be careful. Your judgement is harsh, though probably honest.

A 17 year old David was talked about and criticized as one wanting to spy on the battle. God's hand was upon him unbeknownst to the hundreds around him. He did not flinch and wouldn't even use the time-honored battle gear of his leader, but rather used what he knew best in his work for God as he defeated the enemy of God's people.

The youth today are using what they know best and they are reaching their friends for God. Let us not make the mistake of pushing them to the world due to religious bias concerning their choices with regard to style of worship expression.

God has taught me so many of these kinds of lessons the hard way. I have learned to let him lead the youth of today. It could be that they will teach me something.

pa

pastorables wrote:Chris, be careful. Your judgement is harsh, though probably honest.

I like Chris. I like Chris a lot.

Poimen wrote:

Pastor Gary wrote:
But, as it is, a TBN-ish, charismatic (IMO) wanna be (semi) worldly so called "Christian youth ministry." I say mark it as being among those who walk disorderly, and avoid it.

I've heard Karen Wheaton share her heart, I don't believe she is TBN-ish... or worldly. She has a holiness background (CoGoP) and she is for holiness pretty clearly.

We (may) get too distracted by clothing styles or other stylistic elements that have nothing to do with a person's heart... Man looks at the outward appearance.. but God looks at the heart.

I say let 'em dance!

Jennifer Smith wrote:I've heard Karen Wheaton share her heart, I don't believe she is TBN-ish... or worldly. She has a holiness background (CoGoP) and she is for holiness pretty clearly.

We (may) get too distracted by clothing styles or other stylistic elements that have nothing to do with a person's heart... Man looks at the outward appearance.. but God looks at the heart.

Well, when she's on TBN she sure waddles to their tune. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck -- must be a duck.

Though outward appearance can be misleading, it certainly is, in many instances, an indication of what is, or is not, in the heart. However, my comments were not so much aimed at Karen's appearance as that of the whole group's persona. Sure kids want to be hip and trendy. But when that is a predominant thing it is evidence of this age dominating in their lives instead of the Spirit. That's also an issue I take with CCM, by the way.

Besides, I've watched them do their routine, and honestly, it's put on. It's learned, mimicked behavior. They jump, they grunge and gothic up, they learn the forms of worship, because it's cool, it's what gets them attention, and it's emotionally satisfying. That is the sad reality I have seen with my own eyes as I have watched those who have been significantly involved in the Ramp.

They can out worship Baal's prophets. They've got the shout and the dance down. But I'm afraid the fire is not falling.

This is not meant to discount those who are sincere and have truly come to faith in Christ. Nor is it meant to impede them in their walk. Rather I recognize that the overall impact of the ministry has this stigma noted above. That is dangerous for any Christian, especially young people, and even more so young people who are new converts.

It's perplexing to me what Christian teens - who are involved in ministry instead of doing who knows what - have done to provoke the ire and scrutiny of Christian elders. I'm not attached, have no connection whatsoever to them and if they're on the channel, most of the time I change it. Still, I think there are way bigger fish to fry than putting their worship and motives under a microscope.

DeWayneTN wrote:It's perplexing to me what Christian teens - who are involved in ministry instead of doing who knows what - have done to provoke the ire and scrutiny of Christian elders. I'm not attached, have no connection whatsoever to them and if they're on the channel, most of the time I change it. Still, I think there are way bigger fish to fry than putting their worship and motives under a microscope.

Fair enough. I want to clarify though that it is not the teenagers themselves I am scrutinizing, but the ministry that is producing them, and the evident results thereof.