Jude 2

I have been a casual observer of Jude2 for quite sometime and this will be my first post to this site (and maybe my last). Over the last six or eight months I have noticed something of a trend when it comes to expressing opinions on certain matters and I'm wondering if those folks who chose to express themselves really have all the facts before they make bold and sometimes sweeping statements.

Let me be specific. I'm referring mainly to the recurring critique of the COGOP leadership.

I was reading the book of Proverbs the other day and I noticed a passage that suddenly jumped out at me like never before. Proverbs 18:13 which many believe teaches that we should never answer a matter before we hear all the facts.

When we choose to criticize others, especially those in leadership, do we have all the facts?

I want to thank PG for his prompt and careful scrutiny of what stays up on this site because I have noticed that some things posted don't stay up very long. Most likely because they push the envelope for one reason or the other.

It appears that the most heated criticism of COGOP leadership comes from people who are COGOP members, former members or (of all things) active COGOP pastors who feel they have been unfairly treated by their SO, GP or the International Office.

It is impossible for any of us to know why certain decisions are made by those who God has placed in the position of leadership. The only certainty is that they hold the position and we don't. Our only obligation in the matter is to earnestly give our full support to them both publicly, privately and especially in prayer.

I have seen things posted on this site that trouble me to the point that I have picked up the phone and called the COGOP State Overseer to find out what is going on. Most generally what I discover is that Proverbs is right on target. Always hear both sides of the matter and get all the facts before reaching a conclusion. My greatest fear is that some people don't really care about the truth. They simply hear something that's generally negative and seemingly do their very best to spread it around without regard to the damage caused within the Body of Christ.

Encouragement (especially on the web) is the tortoise; negativity is the hare.

No organization is perfect and that includes COGOP. I have been a member of the COGOP for many years and on more than one occasion I have been tempted to leave. Yet when I look around at other organizations I find they too have their troubles, so I stay put. I guess this is where God wants me.

I remain a member with the full understanding that if this is where God wants me then I will support the leadership whether I always agree with them or not. Should the day come when God says "it is time to move" then I will leave with tremendous love and respect for the many COGOP friends and acquaintances that I have come to know over the years.

I am puzzled by the fact that some who are "members" or worse yet, "pastors" have nothing good to say about an organization that they are a part of. Wouldn't both parties be better served if there was a brotherly separation of the ways and in love we simply moved on?

To contantly foster a critical spirit because of things that have happened years ago and harbor what amounts to nothing more than unforgiveness is a recipe for spiritual disaster. The adage is still true, "if you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all" whether it involves a brother in Christ, a particular church or a person in leadership.

My opinion on any subject carries very little weight and quite honestly neither does anyone else's. The only thing that really matters at the end of the day is what Jesus thinks about the words we utilize to encourage or discourage one another. The things posted here can be viewed by people all over the world. This fact alone should give us pause to consider not only what we say but how we say it. Just think, if we spent as much time on our knees praying about the issue (whatever it is) as we spent on the computer, I dare say this site would suddenly radiate like never before with the love and glory that is the essence of Christ.

There is power in the tongue and God is glorified only when our words (either written or spoken) are words of encouragement.

By God's grace let it begin in me.

You've made a fantastic post, but I disagree with your title just a bit. The critical spirit OF CogoP should perhaps be changed to the critical spirit of some christians.

The way your title read makes it sound like all of CoGoP as a whole is critical and that is simply not the case.

With that being said...welcome.

Your post title could be misleading.

The critical spirit of Cogop.

I gather from your post that you are basically talking about people being critical about CoGop.

Nice first post.

Message boards are a funny thing.

There are many people who have differing experiences here. Some have been in or near to the IO, some have been the SO, so they speak from experience rather than just from I heard this or I heard that. Many have lived through what is being discussed.

I have also noticed that SOs have thier perception while a local church holds to a different version of the events. It's kind of like your side my side and the truth.

I doubt that a first post will have much sway or change anyone's nature.

Build a rep as a voice of reason.

Welcome aboard.

scooter wrote:There are many people who have differing experiences here. Some have been in or near to the IO, some have been the SO, so they speak from experience rather than just from I heard this or I heard that. Many have lived through what is being discussed.

Excellent response, Scooter.

Hopefully, I have been constructive with any criticism offered toward COGOP or any organization, nevertheless, several on this board, including myself, view our heritage from a broader perspective now than in the past.

Govols, your post, as true as it may be, seems slanted in defense of COGOP. Just last night, a man shared with me he would likely never return to the organization due to being hurt by former friends and loved ones. Where are the defenders of those who have been hurt and forgotten?

Please don't be a stranger. We welcome all opinions on any topic. One word of advice is that your words would carry more influence if not hidden by a pen name - at least in my opinion.

Welcome again,
pa

God placed me in the CoGoP, and I will stand here, I do everything I can to cooperate with our leadership, I don't always agree with everything, and I don't feel I have to remain silent about those things. But I will continue to work with them.

Yes many are overly critical, but that can be due to some very bad experiences, not just a poor attitude. We (the CoGoP) have made mistakes, and I don't think we should just ignore the past hurts either, let people vent if they need to, then SHOW them the love of Christ whether they agree with us or not. THAT is more important than any defending of the organization.

Govols wrote:It is impossible for any of us to know why certain decisions are made by those who God has placed in the position of leadership. The only certainty is that they hold the position and we don't. Our only obligation in the matter is to earnestly give our full support to them both publicly, privately and especially in prayer..

Govols, I'm former COGOP, but you'll note that I almost never say anything critical of COGOP. That said, I don't take your post as being directed at me, so please take what I'm going to say as not being directed at you.

I think most pastors here, former or current, would disagree with the quoted portion of your post, especially that part about "our only obligation in the matter". Frankly, I think most pastors who are told that accept that as an invitation to leave the organization, and that their front-line, field-level concerns, problems, challenges are of little importance when compared to the fact that the leader is in the particular position. The leader becomes paramount over the substance of what's happening, according to that assessment. That is the exact source of frustration that I see expressed here by pastors, members, well-wishing formers, etc.

That approach, honestly, destroys the bond of trust between leaders and the lead. Now, there is certainly a point at which each individual pastor, member, etc. may have to just say, "Well, that's all I can constructively do. If I'm going to grow where I am planted, then I have to lovingly do 'x', 'y' or 'z'." Trouble-making for its own sake is certainly not the makings of a good follower of either God or man. But, I would submit that what is seen here is almost never of that variety.

As a former Bishop in cogop and having left the organization I and a few others have been critized for some of our comments concerning leadership, and practices and in some cases have been told that because we have left we no longer have any right to make suggesstions or to critize.

Of course I do not agree at all with that assessment. I may have left the cogop but not the Body of Christ and because we are all one, I still have the right to critize, state oponions and point to areas which I feel might be wrong or holding the body of Christ back.

It is not the critisium that one should be overly concerned with, rather the spirit which it comes from. Having been outside the cogop for several years, I see some things with a very different prespective. Some of that experience gives me an advantage and possibly some of it can taint me.

The one thing I have realized since being on this forum, a good thing, is that there is a much more critical examination of scripture. As I see the post it is clear that most of the pastors here are not just status quo. But are taking a long hard look at the word of God and some of the conclusion are a little different than the past interpretation.

I think the right type of critisum toward leadership, practices, procedures can net the same positive results.

I would think that being outside an organization would make me less interested in the goings-on of it. I mean, the world is big and huge and the harvest is plentious. But that's just me.

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DeWayneTN wrote:I would think that being outside an organization would make me less interested in the goings-on of it. I mean, the world is big and huge and the harvest is plentious. But that's just me.

You're probably right, but for me, I was going through a period of assessment about all the past stuff --- let me correct that: a period of self-torture is more like it. Anyway, I was sort of trolling on the old COGOP discussion board and along the way learned about, visited and jumped on here. Since then, I've made my fair share of comments about COGOP, mostly friendly ones and complimentary. I've sprinkled my criticisms with qualifiers and take-this-for-what-its-worth disclaimers precisely because I am no longer in the organization.

Let me say this: Jude2 has been a balm on wounds for me. And, I don't blame COGOP for them in the first place. My wounds are my own responsibility, but this forum and the people here are very much important to me. I came with a little bit of an ax to grind, and got sort of drowned out of that with reading a lot of wisdom, a lot of love and patience and grace, no small amount of hard jousting (not so much involving me but watching it happen) that has given me lots of occasions to think about things. The purpose of being here became, very quickly for me, something altogether unrelated to the goings-on in the COGOP, but I respect and applaud and admire what a base COGOP gives to those in it who are in here and who have done me a favor by letting me be part of the deal. So, it's really, really tough for me to be mean-spirited about an organization that really shapes this forum in a big way when I find the forum to be such a real blessing.

Is being critical of criticism, really being critical? Would it be called criticism criticism?

Any how, I love all yall!

Just for the record, as mean and snarky as my comment sounded, I didn't mean it to be that way. Or at least not so much.

I think it was an excellent post although I don't totally agree with all you said. But you said it in a very loving way. Thank you for that!

I think what some may see as criticizism is actually people venting or just looking for an unbiased opinion about a situation. Yes, some is just down right criticizism but the mods do a good job of taking those posts down right away. Normally if your gonna make a statement your gonna have to back it up or the mods will take it off.

You said we have problems as do other organizations. But part of the way that we solve those problems is by talking it out amongst ourselves. The people on Jude2 (alot of whom I have met) are a very caring group of indivisuals who love God and the church. Sometimes we may even argue amonst ourselves but we still respect and love each other as christians should.

If you want to see some good critizism check out the arguements between Paul & Peter in the Bible. LOL! They couldn't even work together!

I appreciated your post.......disagree with it in part .....but it was nicely written.

I see in it a "status Quo" spirit, that leadership is almost always right and should not be questioned.

However, and this will draw a lot of fire, but some of us have earned the right to "criticize" . We have been in the fight.....dead center....and have dealt with the day to day issues from the inside out.

Some feel that when one leaves COGOP, they should just go away and shut up......which is what I did for a long time......and I basically don't make too much of a fuss other than on here and not about a lot of issues here anymore. I learned my lesson...

You also mentioned that "other organizations" have their problems also. You are dead on and that is why I chose not to align with another organization. I have no need to try to make myself important to others. I now only "perform for an audience of one". I am accountable to God and to those whom I have entrusted to speak into my life.

So, don't be a spectator........get in the mix....you might find yourself having to take a side that will surprise you.