Jude 2

In paying a little attention to our nation being at war, I noticed how the why of war depends upon the person you ask.

I have witnessed regular people disagreeing on why we are now at war.

War for oil or because of weapons of mass destruction seem to be the main choices. I was curious to see what most here thought.

I now see why people disagree on the cause of the Civil War.

People disagree now and the war and its reasons have happened before our eyes.

If it was over oil, we would have tried to take it a long time ago.

If it was about imperialism, we'd be at war with most countries.

We defeated Germany twice in the past century. We helped them rebuild their country and found a more democratic government. We defeated Japan and helped rebuild their country and establish a democratic government. Name a country in recent history we defeated and then stole their resources and sought to control them indefinitely.

Those who claim this is about oil and imperialism are either (a) uninformed and ignorant of America's history, or (b) influenced by the anti-American, anti-capitalist, anti-democratic usual-suspects.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

I for one think it is about oil and liberation.

Sadam is the only Terrorist supporting dictator that I know that because of his oil fields has an open checkbook and can fund any terrorist action or group. Yes, other dictators are just as bad or worse and I hope that in time they are dealt with. However, because of Sadam's oil money I think that makes him the one that must be dealt with now.

I think there are probably several reasons we are at war right now. Oil probably plays a role in there, but also liberation and security among others. And we have to also remember that 9/11 changed the way we handle our security. I know there hasnt been a direct link between Saddam and terrorism, but we know for a fact he financually supports terror acts.

And whats so wrong with doing this also for economic reasons? The US was really hit big in the wallet on 9/11. I dont think theres anything wrong with addmiting that because its true! What if Saddams money finances future terror attacks on US soil? It could devistate our econimy and cause literally millions to loose there jobs and rock the global market. Is there something wrong with protecting American citizens and at the same time seeking to secure American financual concerns? I say no.

Oil plays a role for FRANCE who relies heavily on the Iraqi oil.

I kind of find it extremely difficult to believe that the US government would rather go bomb a nation out of existence and rebuild a nation, invest millions and millions for an unknown quality of oil RATHER THAN fight off The Environmental Wackos here at home and proceed with offshore drilling and responsible exploration of Alaskas "Nature preserve".

(Anyone remember Carters Official somethingoranother James Watts who said we should go and drill extensively in Alaska because Jesus was coming back and we ought to use our resources while we could?)


The cost of a single Tomahawk missle (1.4 mil) could by HOW many barrels of oil at 31$ a barrel?

Now how many Tomahawks have been launched in one week? I think they said 30 .

So 30 x 1.4 mil = roughly 42 million purchasing 1 MIllion Three Hundred fifty four thousand and some odd barrels of oil.

Remember thats just the cost of the Tomahawks alone and does not factor ANY of the cost of other supplied and amunition expenditures.


War for oil, yeah right. TUrn on Katie Couric empty your head and let the
NBC network of liberal nut balls Program your mind.

Michael, I find your world view fascinating. Very sad, but interesting.

You really don't believe anybody does anything for a "CAUSE," do you? I am not in agreement that this war is part of a grand conspiracy to control the world's wealth.

I would not like to live in your world.

I dont mean to highjack this thread, but Michael made me do some searching. Check out this site.

http://www.trueconspiracies.com/

Disclaimer : All things found here, and the links off this site may be offencive to some and hold non-traditional-christians views. Be warned

Michael wrote:Does "sad" mean "wrong" or does it mean "true" but not a fun place to be at?

It means "sad."

Sad, as in fatalistic, depressing, negative, borderline paranoid, conspiracy-theoried, anti-authoritarian, the-sky-is-falling, no-hope-for-the-future... you know... sad.

...I believe a lot of people do a lot of things for a cause and what they believe are noble causes. I believe that most people in this latest war with Iraq think the cause is a noble one. And I believe that good will come out of it. I'm just not so naive to believe that the underlying motives of the few in charge are as noble as the ones doing the actual grunt work.

So instead, you believe the President expended all his political capital, risked his re-election, callously sent young men and women into harm's way knowing many would be returned in body bags, risked riots in the streets, stirred up the anti-American, anti-capitalist, anti-Bush ragtag leftists --- for some kind of profit motive? I see. I don't buy it, but I see.

Coming from where your mind is at, what else could you believe?

Wow, Michael. I could take that personally, you know!

Get beyond the facade of the mainstream media and you might think differently.

And the NON-mainstream, sensationalist media has a better accuracy record? Articles written by God-only-knows-who on an web-site owned by an advocacy group is more impartial and objective than FoxNews or CNN?

You do live in my world, Gary. You just refuse to accept it for what it is.

No, Michael... your "world" is a world-view, a mindset not necessarily grounded in objective facts, but colored by your non-mainstream views of the economy, the government, taxation and other hot-button issues. You have a right to your issues --- I certainly have my hot-buttons, too -- but we can't expect everyone else to see things our way, and they are not stupid or naive if they don't.

Since you live near Pearl Harbor and the memorial practically stares you in the face, I suggest that you read the book Day of Deceit to see if the attack on Pearl Harbor was really a surprise attack as we've always been told. The book is not someone's theory; it is the piecing together of documents procured through Freedom of Information Act requests from the government and proves conclusively that the attack "... was the result of a carefully orchestrated design, initiated at the highest levels of our government."

I am familiar with the book, familiar with Pearl Harbor and would suggest I might know far more about the subject than you think. that "...the attack "... was the result of a carefully orchestrated design, initiated at the highest levels of our government." is the conclusion of the author based upon his analysis of the data. There is a lot of other material out there, edited by other historians, that show a pattern of incompetence, breakdown of the chain of command, faulty interpretations of warning signs and a lot of other things that go deeper than a duplicitous conspiracy to drag us into war. But since you have read that book and decided it is the final authority...

...perhaps you are like most people who like to live in the world of "ignorance is bliss?"

Or perhaps I think being about my Father's business is of far greater import than battling the governement and the military-industrial complex and spending inordinate amounts of time on things not of eternal consequence. These are interesting sidelines to history, but if we focus upon them, we can forget that God holds all of history in His hands, and things will play oout the way He has outlined them anyway. Of what use is it to struggle against leaders and governments and systems that operate at the will and good pleasure of the Father? We are but pilgrims and strangers passing through here on the way to our eternal home, and yet we get so entangled in the affairs of this world that we get so earthly minded we ar no heavenly good.

I don't think anyone of us has enough information to draw a solid conclusion for certain as to all the "whys" of the current conflict in Iraq, and if we did have someone here who had top-secret security clearance, they wouldn't tell us what they know in this forum.

I don't think the poll as phrased takes into account enough choices or combinations of choices.

I think oil certainly as something to do with the war, though it seems to me that more than anything our President's belief seems to be that he is acting in the best interest of the American people.

The greater problem, in my opinion, is the fundamentalist Islamic mindset that very easily lends itself to terrorism. And changing people's minds is not easily accomplished, especially when the people in question view the would-be persuaders as "the great Satan."

Gerald Creasy wrote:(Anyone remember Carters Official somethingoranother James Watts who said we should go and drill extensively in Alaska because Jesus was coming back and we ought to use our resources while we could?)

Just a correction. James Watts was Reagan's first Secretary of the Interior, not Carter's. Eaten alive by the media because of his Christianity. Finally forced out when he ran afoul of Nancy. Didn't want to have the Beach Boys at some concert on the Mall in D. C., saying that their music was of the devil. Turns out that Nancy loved the Beach Boys, so Watts was history.

Bro Pelajus

Michael wrote:Quite honestly, I think I'm pretty level headed but with a rather intense energy level that is put into anything I put my mind to do and/or study.

I am quite sure you find yourself to be quite level-headed and your views reasonable; shucks, nobody wakes up one day and says, "I tihk today I will find the most outragious positions on everything I believe just for the sheer mad joy of it!" Even lunatics don't think they are out on the lunatic fringe. But you do not have the necessary perspective to decide that for yourself anymore than anybody else does. Frankly, you have managed to study your way into some of the most extreme positions possible on pretty much everything I have ever seen you post on. Examples? You don't pay taxes; you don't attend an organized church; You will only read the King James translation because all the others are corrupted with New Age philosophies; You refuse to listen to any sort of Christian "rock" music because it is corrupted; and now you are saying that there is a secret reason why the war is on, and that the media is decieved and/or deliberately decieving pretty much everybody but you and those who know what you know. If I forgot anything, go ahead and post it to remind me. Forgive me for saying so, but it's hard to put much trust into the statements of a person who goes so far out on so many things.

So instead, you believe the President expended all his political capital, risked his re-election, callously sent young men and women into harm's way knowing many would be returned in body bags, risked riots in the streets, stirred up the anti-American, anti-capitalist, anti-Bush ragtag leftists --- for some kind of profit motive?

I don't know President Bush's motives. For all I know, he is as sincere as he shows himself to be. It is you who says I believe this and that about the president. I never said such.

Well, what do you believe? Are you saying that the President of the United States is the pawn of some cabal of national and/or international authority figures that sets people like him up and pulls them down according to their onw designs? Or if you aren't saying that, then what? And please, just say whatever it is you believe;I can't speak for anyone else, but I am working two jobs and working with two music groups and I really don't have time to go chasing down info on a bunch of websites. Just say it and get it out in the open, okay?

Vande

Actually I have to agree with Michael. Busy or not, you really should find the time to study these things out for yourself. http://www.thenewamerican.com/focus/wor ... /index.htm

www.thenewamerican.com has many interesting articles. Did you know, that according to our Constitution, the President does not have the power to declare war? Also, one might find it interesting to learn just how long we have been under martial law.... All my life! That's for sure!!!

Oh, and did I mention that I used to Lobby? I have experience first hand.

Seek it for yourself!

Michael wrote:
I'd be interested in reading about your lobbying efforts and experiences. Were they state and/or federal?

State, and I was a volunteer, I wasn't paid. I did it because I felt like it was the right thing to do.

Let's just say that I was impressed enough by what I saw, that I won't write about it. If you ever take your walk-about visiting, we will talk about it over a beer.

Michael wrote:I certainly have questioned my views and the sources for those views and have revised several such views over the years. At times I look at my wife and she looks at me and we ask: "Why are we so different?" I claim the Kinks song "I'm Not Like Everybody Else" as my anthem.

Well, at least you know that you are way different than most folks. That's a start...

But you do not have the necessary perspective to decide that for yourself anymore than anybody else does.

Then who does?

[/quote]

Such things are usually determined by a consensus of opinion. That is why the "me and Jesus don't need anybody else" approach doesn't work; we are made to need each other and that is why the bible says "do not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, as is the practice of some"...

Frankly, you have managed to study your way into some of the most extreme positions possible on pretty much everything I have ever seen you post on.

Extreme being defined as?

[/quote]

Widely divergent from your fellows.

Examples? You don't pay taxes;

I pay plenty of taxes: Property taxes, gun and ammo taxes, car registration taxes, alcohol taxes (just a beer every now and then), rooms and meals taxes, gasoline taxes, dog licensing tax, drivers license tax, telephone taxes, natural gas taxes, electricity taxes, etc.

Come on Mike, you know what I mean, and don't jive me with this pettifogging.

No, I don't pay federal income taxes for there is no law and/or regulation requiring me to pay such a tax in my present status as an Amercian citizen living and working in one of the 50 United States.

Whereas the consensus of opinion is that paying federal income tax is a legal, ethical, and moral obligation.

you don't attend an organized church;

It's been a while, yes. Is that something that should be held against me?

Held against you? It's merely one of the trees that compose the forest named Mike Olzsta. Taken by itself, it doens't mean much, but when you put it with the rest of the trees in the that forest, it gives a more accurate view of who you are.

You will only read the King James translation because all the others are corrupted with New Age philosophies;

I don't necessarily buy that argument anymore. Riplinger influenced my thinking at one time but presently I would not use that argument in defense of the KJV.

But you were willing to take the word of a woman whose degree is in a branch of Home Economics over that of scholars who have devoted their academic lives to the study of the scriptures and their translation. And, unless I misunderstand you, you still maintain the KJV is the only valid translation of the autographas that compose the Holy Bible. THAT is an extreme viewpoint that contradicts the weight of scholarship on the subject. In short, the recognized experts mostly disagree with you. Do you still believe the translators of the KJV were divinely inspired?

You refuse to listen to any sort of Christian "rock" music because it is corrupted;

I don't care for Christian rock, no. It does nothing for me spiritually. I'd rather sing praises to the Lord in unsyncopated, non-amplified music, but I wouldn't debate the issue as before. It is a preference of mine, not a doctrinal absolute.

Come on, Mike, we have a history, and it doesn't support what you are saying. A few years ago, you sent me to a cheezy site that may not outright say that Christian rock is satanic, but is pretty emphatic that it is harmful, not merely unedifying. Why would you do that if you didn't have the opinion that it is harmful?

The only thing I would point out is that scientific studies prove that rock, at least the real hard stuff, is not healthy for plants and/or humans while baroque classical is.

Yeah, well I heard about a scientific study that proves fresh air is bad for people; it irritates the lungs and raises the blood pressure. Take it how you want to, but science doesn't always have the right answer...and people aren't plants, guy....

Feel free to interpret such data as you please.

Thanx.

I take it to mean that I'm probably better off listening to classical music than I am rock n roll, Christian or not. But I have my rockin favorites on the computer that I let loose on every now and then depending on my mood. Like my daughter, who is a piano performance major says: "Music has a lot to do with mood, Papa."

And you are free to listen to whatever you want. But you have made public statements that denigrate contemporary Gospel music.

and now you are saying that there is a secret reason why the war is on, and that the media is decieved and/or deliberately decieving pretty much everybody but you and those who know what you know.

I believe the underlying reason(s) for the war with Iraq goes a lot deeper than what we are being told, yes.

[/quote]

Now we are getting down to brass tacks.

I believe there is a conspiracy by certain elite to take over the world and usher in the anti-Christ.

If that is the case, it is the fulfillment of prophecy, at least in one eschatological construct. Do you think you, or anyone else, or even a group of people, are going to stop what was prophesied by God?

I believe that Sadaam is an obstacle to that plan, that he is no longer playing by the rules of those who are running the show (or at least they think they are running the show; God is allowing them to carry out their plans so is in charge) and that he (Sadaam) must be removed.

Even if it is true, who cares? Let me rephrase that; what Christian cares? Jesus said when you see all the signs of the end happening, look up for your redemption draweth nigh. We are supposed to be found doing what He said to do, which as far as I can tell doesn't include trying to nail down the details of what the enemy is beiing allowed to do to bring it about.

The anti-Christ is not just going to pop in and say "Here I am! Take the mark!" without a lot of groundwork being done in advance by those whom the spirit of lawlessness controls.

Again, so what? The rubber will meet the road sometime, if the end time scenario actually follows the chiliastic viewpoint you seem to espouse. And by the way, that viewpoint hasn't been incontrovertably proven either.

If I forgot anything, go ahead and post it to remind me. Forgive me for saying so, but it's hard to put much trust into the statements of a person who goes so far out on so many things.

You'd be a fool to trust my statements or those of any other man. [/quote]

Oh garbage! You make your posts here with every intent of them being taken seriously. Don't act like you don't.

But I would say that what you consider to be far out may be due to a lack of research on your part and I say that with no malice.

And I would say, also without malice, that you have reached your views based on information you gathered by researching the particular group of experts you have CHOSEN to believe. That doesn't make you better informed than anybody, it merely means you have gathered information to support the preconceptions you started with.

Just to take the federal income tax issue, for example: Tell me, do you pay them because you actually have read the law that requires you to pay them or do you pay them because that's just the way everyone else you know does it?

I pay them because I have a moral obligation to pay my share of the expense of the public services I consume. I have said so previously.

Well, what do you believe? Are you saying that the President of the United States is the pawn of some cabal of national and/or international authority figures that sets people like him up and pulls them down according to their onw designs?

Yes, insomuch that God allows them to carry out their plans.

Well, at least you have come out and said so.

Whether the President himself is consciously aware of these things is between him and God. His father was the first president to tout the phrase "New World Order" during the first gulf war.

Yeah, and John Hagee and all those guys who make money off of selling paranoid polemics to all those pointy-headed little conspiracy theorists out there thought they'd died and gone to heaven when he did; A financial bonanza was in the making....

I don't know if they consciously are for giving up the United States' national sovereignity, but their actions certainly show that they don't seem to care anything about the bill of rights and the protections it offers American citizens.

Considering the present state of affairs at the UN(we ignored them and unilaterally started war in Iraq against UN wishes and intentions), I wonder how you can say that with a straight face.

Hopefully I've answered your question.

Hopefully, I have given you something to think about in respopnse...