Jude 2

Please allow me to vent today, since it's Pastor Gary's board!

I am grieved today. It's Monday morning, and I am pretty heartsick and discouraged. Oh, not over having to work today, or even things in general at our church... I am heartsick over my own failure.

I have, apparently, failed in my attempt to persistently and consistently teach what it looks like, and sounds like, and feels like to live a Christlike life and live sanctified -- set apart -- from the world. There is a cancer spreading among our youth. A spiritual cancer of compromise, lack of understanding of the essence of holiness, an affection for the world... a shallowness of the Spirit and a casual attitude toward the enticements of chocolate.

I am frightened. I am disappointed. I am, frankly, hurt.

I have invested my life in teaching, preaching and counseling young people to focus on Jesus... that the world has nothing to offer them, that they are chosen, His beloved that they are to put the things, the desires, of this world behind them (1 John 2:15-17) and live holy lives. The latest trick of the enemy, the current enticement? Eating chocolate.

I confess: I can only speak from second-hand knowledge, because I haven't eaten a lot of chocolate. When I was a younger man I made a choice, stepped over from darkness into light, and the world no longer held any enticement for me. The things that once looked fun, glamorous and desirable lost their pull --- I started to see them clearly, through spiritual eyes, and recognized them for the trap they were. But, even second-hand, from a distance, I know that eating chocolate does not glorify God, does not foster spiritual growth, does not promote abstinence and sobriety. Some of our younger people see no problem with spending their weekends eating chocolate; some have no problem justifying eating chocolate. Have we fallen so far from our Wesleyan-Holiness roots that people who grew up in our Children's Churches, Youth Groups and Camps are blinded to the spiritual perils of compromise and playing on the enemies' home field?

Part of my role as a Christian is to identify, disciple and release emerging leaders in order to perpetuate and expand our movement and build upon our labors. Perhaps God is "thinning the herd" or reducing the pool of possibilities to Gideon's Army... if so, we, as leaders, need to sharpen our vision and discernment; God will test those with leadership potential, but not all will pass the test! He will bypass those who find the way too narrow and the standards too high, and He will raise up the most unlikely, the most unqualified and humble to take their place. (1 Peter 5:5)

I know: there are those among us here on this board who will think this rant is ridiculous, and write magnificent justifications of eating chocolate. I have seen the alleged scriptural justifications, and I am not interested in clever debate over them. Here's the bottom line for me; I am watching young people who were once passionate, committed, closely following Jesus... and as they have drifted into "freedom" and decided they are just as saved as ever, they are just having fun, and there's no harm in eating chocolate, they have become less interested in church, looser in their language, accepting of all kinds of other unGodly lifestyle issues, and, in general, so far from separated and set apart that you couldn't pick them out as a follower of Jesus in a lineup.

I am sickened. I am saddened. I am praying for a revival of holiness and asking God to raise up a generation of young people who hate sin and don't enjoy partying with it.

That's it. I am off my soapbox now. I feel better for saying it.

Let the disparagement begin.

I found this remarkably unfunny and bordering on insulting to the man who runs this board.

I did not think this was the slightest bit funny either and so disrespectful to Pastor Gary's heart felt vent...Goodness do you have no clue on respect sir?

fezzik wrote::(

I found this remarkably unfunny and bordering on insulting to the man who runs this board.

I agree, very disrespectful.

Very distasteful and very disrespectful!

I too agree that this was in very bad taste and not at all funny; and was insulting and disrespectful to Pastor Gary.

An apology would be in order.

I can't even figure out what your point is (if you indeed have one). What is your problem?

Rahab wrote:

fezzik wrote::(

I found this remarkably unfunny and bordering on insulting to the man who runs this board.

I agree, very disrespectful.

I have to agree

KB

Well,

This post certainly wasn't meant to be disrespectful. I have the utmost admiration for Pastor Gary and his ministry through this board. I posted this hoping that, based on my previous dialogue with him that he wouldn't take it as being disrespectful either. If you do Pastor Gary, I apologize. No disrespect was intended.

We have discussed at length in another thread whether it is sinful to drink beer in moderation. I contend that it is not. There is ample scriptural evidence that Jesus drank wine (not grape juice or diluted wine). If we condemn this behaviour, we condemn Jesus' behavior which is rather absurd.

Paul was very careful to avoid the gnostic position with respect to God's material creation, which Jesus saw as good and worthy of redemption. Paul never contended that meat offered to idols was somehow 'evil', simply that those in the Church shouldn't cause other Christians to stumble by their behavior.

Some are oblivious to the fact that the certain doctrines prevalent in the modern Church inadvertently embrace gnosticism. The idea that God will throw this earth into the cosmic garbage can and that Christians will escape to a far off place in the universe called 'heaven' is a good example.

God forbid we should find the youth of today eating and drinking with sinners as Jesus did in his day. ME GENOITO

I would hope they would take pride in being accused of being winebibbers and friends of sinners as Jesus was accused by the Pharisees so many years ago.

Mat 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him, a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

Seems to me like we get this thing backwards. Identify with Jesus or identify with those who hurled the accusations. It's your choice.

Dude, I'd ban you in a heartbeat if it were my board.

I wouldn't even think twice.

Irthnvesl, you've apologized to the man and it's between you and him at this point, as far as I'm concerned.

BUT .... if I may .... I've got to tell you that this man's heart was poured out here and I take it seriously. Gravely seriously. His point, and he went to great lengths to make it, wasn't that he wished to debate the biblical teaching on abstinence vs. temperance when it comes to booze. The topic has been discussed here sufficiently, including by Pastor Gary, that anyone who has listened knows there are widely diverging views on the matter among the people on the board. Granted, you haven't been here that long and probably weren't privy to the discussion on this particular board. Pastor Gary is not judgmental on this issue, but he is sober and wise about it. He was not making sweeping judgments in his comments; he was, though, talking about the specific context of his church, and more generally about the types of activities and lifestyles engaged by some youth in his watchcare, and how they are dangerous and how that Christian life and devotion to the Way of Jesus ought to counsel people against those lifestyles and conduct. His was a lament, a deeply held longing for the good of those he shepherds, and what looks from his perspective (and many pastors and parents as well) as an impasse between what is good (sobriety of heart, mind and body) and what is popular (i.e., everything in pop culture), and his own disappointment at not being able to bridge it for them. He never made a condemnation or staked out a biblical theology of alcoholic beverages. That wasn't his goal, and it is wholly beside the point.

I say that to say this: We're all capable of being sharp here. We'd all agree that Shellie has a sharp wit, Gerald Creasy has a sharp temper and a sharp way of cutting through a lot of mess to make a point, Tracy has a sharp intellect, Scooter has a sharp approach to saying what needs to be said, Pastor Ables has a sharp way of reminding me personally about humility, ... need I go on ... I could for another half hour...., and you have some sharp points to make and bring to our little corner of Christendom here. All of that can be used in ways that build one another up. For the sake of the kingdom and those trying to build it, to make true Jesus' own prayer of "thy kingdom come" (or, as John Ortberg says it, "make up there come down here"), save the rapier for a time and place when it accomplishes something other than poking a brother in the eye when he's not looking. There's plenty of room for good, honest and highly polarizing debate here, but man you need to dial it back. And, I say that as someone who really thinks about most of what you've shared here and I've tried to engage you honestly and respectfully with it.

Good thing it ain't your board.

I think Pastor Gary's point, if you are able to read it without a chip on your shoulder, is a fading passion for God and distractions that he's seeing.

I agree, very rude and disrespectful. However, he stirs up trouble on the other boards too. I thought it very immature.

I probably should have made my point differently. I sense in Pastor Gary's post the depth of his concern for those within the body of Christ. What I meant to provide was a different perspective. From my perspective, the activity of his youth doesn't reflect failure on the part of Pastor Gary at all. He may feel like it does but maybe, just maybe some of them really love God with all their hearts.

As you know from my post on another thread, I often feel like a failure too in my attempts to convey the meaning of scripture. Maybe I really shouldn't have made this post. But the appearance of failure on Pastor Gary's part (as he sees it) is often the very thing that delineates success. I was trying to provide a different perspective in terms of what we see as being sinful behavior.

We MUST identify that we all approach the Bible with certain presuppositions. The statement that people need to 'justify' drinking beer PRESUPPOSES that drinking beer is sinful and there simply is no Biblical support for this position. My point in substituting 'eating chocolate' was to make the point that you could apply that sort of indictment to ANY behavior and support it with a proof-text, e.g. drinking coffee, going to the beach, wearing shorts, having long hair, wearing earrings, sandles, bluejeans, dying ones hair purple, eating bacon, getting a blood transfusion, paying tithes, not washing your hands before a meal, etc.

The Church had BETTER get a grip and re-evaluate what sin really means lest we repeat the mistake of the Pharisees who loved to condemn people on the basis of certain behavior that some would label as being sinful (carrying one's mat on the Sabbath, healing a withered hand, eating with sinners, not fasting on certain days).