Jude 2

For years I have practiced a ministry focused primarily upon love to challenge people to follow Christ and turn from the world. What I have found is discouraging. Love alone hasn't changed the modern day church to be more like Christ. To the contrary, the modern church looks more like the world in principles and values with each passing day. Where have I failed? Where has the body missed the mark?

What do I see missing? A passion for a revival of holiness in all areas of our Christian life. Love is certainly key, but can't stand apart from God's holiness. Love apart from God's holiness is superficial. The Mormon church does a great job of practicing love, as does the Jehovah's Witness's, but do they teach and practice God's holiness?

Please don't misunderstand me to be speaking of the legalistic show of holiness in rules and regulations. That's not my heart on this. I am speaking of true holiness that embodies everything that God is.

When true holiness abounds, true love is an unequivocal reflection. When true love abounds, true holiness should be the natural product. Otherwise, love without holiness is futile and ultimately injurious in many ways to the mission of the body of Christ.

Hopefully, my thoughts have been thought provoking and not full of vain jangling.

Blessings,
pa

Pastorables,

It is my contention that Jesus didn't come to bring us a new set of ethics (which often varies from culture to culture). It seems to me that what people often call holiness is simply ethical behavior. Now I'm no scholar but I ask the question what EXACTLY is holiness. Can you look and someone or look at their behavior and SEE that they are holy or see that they are ETHICAL?

There are a lot of really ethical people who will bust hell wide open. We could look at their lives and see very moral people. Holiness to me seems to involve something else. Again, I'm no scholar but I see holiness as an ontological term - a change in our state of being. We become set apart by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. As Paul said, if anyone is in Christ - Behold! New creation!

It appears from scripture that the primary sin is the sin of idolatry - worship of that which is not God. Our worship of the one true God manifests itself in various ways...prayer..study..etc.

I think that Jesus came to show us what it means to be truly human. He regained what Adam lost at the fall. We were made in the image of God and the end of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit will be to become fully human. Those who by their continued rejection of Christ insist on dehumanizing behavior will ultimately lose the image of God and fail to become fully human.

This is the framework within which I evaluate sin - behavior that is less than full human. Do I indeed worship the one true God or am I worshipping idols (which could include myself)? Jesus pretty much summed up the law with Love God - love your neighbor. If we can get that right - wouldn't that be something?

Just some thoughts brother.



It seems like God gives us the desire to worship Him to know him

irthnvesl wrote: We become set apart by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. As Paul said, if anyone is in Christ - Behold! New creation!

I can agree with the above quotes with the additional understanding that it's this very setting apart and change of nature that causes one to desire to live holy as he is holy. The Bible has much to say about holiness. You don't have to ask my views.

irthnvesl wrote:Jesus pretty much summed up the law with Love God - love your neighbor. If we can get that right - wouldn't that be something?

I believe that possessing Christ's holiness will cause one to truly love their neighbor, but I do not believe that practicing love to one's neighbor will likewise bring Christ's holiness. Again, just look at some of the cults who love without Christ.

Blessings,
pa

pa,

this:

Again, just look at some of the cults who love without Christ.

is an illusion.

God is love. Outside of Christ, love is simply an illusion. They may have affection for one another but I would disagree that they 'love' each other or anybody else for that matter.

Practical holiness is the outward sign of inner holiness.

Our friend has spoken well.......that God is love ....and that purity of His love manifests itself in the lives of those who have true holiness.

I think we have all decided that the "acts" of logalistic behavior are not the essence of holiness.......

A woman told me once that she thought her husband would go to heaven because he didn't smoke, drink, cuss, run around with other women, blah blah blah.....I said to her " Sister, you have just described a fence post.". Those don't do that either, but they are void of relationship with God.

My preaching and teaching is all based these days on that continued relationship with our Lord.....daily, hourly, minute by minute.

We are getting there.

Another gleaning of wisdom:

Dr. Ron wrote:A woman told me once that she thought her husband would go to heaven because he didn't smoke, drink, cuss, run around with other women, blah blah blah.....I said to her " Sister, you have just described a fence post.". Those don't do that either, but they are void of relationship with God.

Holiness, what is it ? how is it manifested ? has been at the core of the great divorce between Evangelical-Holiness and the Pentecostals most all of the last centery and even up to this date.

I will share a few paragraphs, certinally not an answer to your question but hopefully a direction for the generation to come. To which we all seem very concerned ( and rightly so ).

With the Azusa Revival and what is considered the beginning of the pentecostal movement their came a great divide between the two groups. Although tongues was the surface issue their was a greater issue at stake. The issue revolved around the nature of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a spiritual experience that both groups strongly believed in. The question came down to: was the experience of the Holy Spirit primarly about purity(cleansing from a heart divided between self and God) or about power (annointing for ministry and service)?

The delima that I see is that we in the pentecostal circle lost sight of the true inward working of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. We generally reference the office work as, counselor, paraklete, comforter and such, which is true. We generally refer to the Spirit as wind, fire, doves, clouds, which is correct. But we fail to recognize and teach His complete work in our heart. Thus the problem of truly allowing the Spirit to seperate us from the things of this world that trap and entice us. So our response to this was to set up a guideline that we thought represented outwardly what we thought was done inwardly. (man's thoughts, culture, norms of the time and region).

We have failed to help our people to fully understand the work of the Spirit, especially with the young generation. To the most of them the Spirit is either a medafore or a source of power. Yet they have failed to see the Spirit as a person enabeling the very presence of God to dwell in and among them. The Spirit that searches all things, knows all things, teaches the content of the gospel to the believer, accomplishes all things, gives life, cries out from within our hearts, leads us in the way of God, helps us in our weakness, intercedes in our behalf, works all things together for our ultimate good, strengthens believers, and fulfills the fruit of the spirit.

What is holiness ? For me it is the outward working of the inward work of the Spirit in the heart of the believer.

WOW Paul...that is great.

paul wrote:Holiness, what is it ? how is it manifested ? has been at the core of the great divorce between Evangelical-Holiness and the Pentecostals most all of the last centery and even up to this date.

I will share a few paragraphs, certinally not an answer to your question but hopefully a direction for the generation to come. To which we all seem very concerned ( and rightly so ).

With the Azusa Revival and what is considered the beginning of the pentecostal movement their came a great divide between the two groups. Although tongues was the surface issue their was a greater issue at stake. The issue revolved around the nature of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a spiritual experience that both groups strongly believed in. The question came down to: was the experience of the Holy Spirit primarly about purity(cleansing from a heart divided between self and God) or about power (annointing for ministry and service)?

The delima that I see is that we in the pentecostal circle lost sight of the true inward working of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. We generally reference the office work as, counselor, paraklete, comforter and such, which is true. We generally refer to the Spirit as wind, fire, doves, clouds, which is correct. But we fail to recognize and teach His complete work in our heart. Thus the problem of truly allowing the Spirit to seperate us from the things of this world that trap and entice us. So our response to this was to set up a guideline that we thought represented outwardly what we thought was done inwardly. (man's thoughts, culture, norms of the time and region).

We have failed to help our people to fully understand the work of the Spirit, especially with the young generation. To the most of them the Spirit is either a medafore or a source of power. Yet they have failed to see the Spirit as a person enabeling the very presence of God to dwell in and among them. The Spirit that searches all things, knows all things, teaches the content of the gospel to the believer, accomplishes all things, gives life, cries out from within our hearts, leads us in the way of God, helps us in our weakness, intercedes in our behalf, works all things together for our ultimate good, strengthens believers, and fulfills the fruit of the spirit.

What is holiness ? For me it is the outward working of the inward work of the Spirit in the heart of the believer.

Paul, thank you for that...I think you are correct, and thatif there is little or no difference in us from the world, then it is likely that we have not been allowing the Spirit to work in us. We have to reemphasize to our young people what a relationship with Jesus Christ means, he said we should take up our cross and follow Him. It has to be much more than just church on Sunday, it is a daily walk and daily dying to self and letting the life of Christ flow through us.

Ahhhhhh Jennifer and Paul.....well said .....in so many ways...

A daily relationship not based on works or lack thereof....but upon the true living out of the spirit in our everyday life.

[quote="Carlene Prince"]

Carlene, I pm you some additional imformation...hope you got it and it is useful

Holiness is not based on actions, that's backwards thinking, but our actions should be based on Holiness.

The Love of God in us will shine out through our lives, it's like breathing, you are not alive because you breath (otherwise we could resurrect a dead body just by pumping air into it) but we breath because we live.

Our actions don't make us holy, but our actions will begin to more and more reflect our Holiness, which is grounded only in the grace and love of Christ.