Jude 2

"Preparing for a Charismatic Meltdown" by J. Lee Grady, editor of Charisma:

http://fireinmybones.com/index.php?col=111908%7E%20%20Preparing%20for%20a%20Charismatic%20Meltdown

Quote: I hear the sound of bricks and steel beams crashing to the ground. The wrecking ball of heaven is swinging. It has come to demolish any work that has not been built on the integrity of God’s Word.

All of us should be trembling. God requires holiness in His house and truth in the mouths of His servants. He is loving and patient with our mistakes and weaknesses, but eventually, if there is no repentance after continual correction, His discipline is severe. He will not be mocked.

Did anyone read the article? Tell me what did you think?

Great (and sobering) commentary.

Are you surprised? Many of the things he talked about have been talked about on this forum many times. Although, there were those who do not want to hear the warning. Thanks to Gerald and several others on here, warnings have been sounded.

Just .02.

Jinjer

I suppose that Rev. Grady is sincere. I don't suppose he was particularly interested in these things while they were being pointed out by the likes of Hank Hannegraaf and others for years and years before the bankers showed up to blow their cover. I suppose Charisma magazine sold advertising to and wrote many articles highlighting ministries included in his current lament and the offshoots of those ministries. I don't suppose that Rev. Grady is personally responsible for that, or if he is he's not saying. After the workover is complete, it rings hollow for one of the people in a position to do something about it to step out of the cooling carnage and say "Oops." Not that what he's saying isn't true, and not that what he's saying doesn't matter to many still falling for the WOF lie, but he sounds way more like the rich man in hell now asking for a drop of water on his scorched tongue than he sounds like a prophet. The dilemma he faces is now the same as that man in the parable: who's gonna listen?

dolfan wrote:I suppose that Rev. Grady is sincere. I don't suppose he was particularly interested in these things while they were being pointed out by the likes of Hank Hannegraaf and others for years and years before the bankers showed up to blow their cover. I suppose Charisma magazine sold advertising to and wrote many articles highlighting ministries included in his current lament and the offshoots of those ministries. I don't suppose that Rev. Grady is personally responsible for that, or if he is he's not saying. After the workover is complete, it rings hollow for one of the people in a position to do something about it to step out of the cooling carnage and say "Oops." Not that what he's saying isn't true, and not that what he's saying doesn't matter to many still falling for the WOF lie, but he sounds way more like the rich man in hell now asking for a drop of water on his scorched tongue than he sounds like a prophet. The dilemma he faces is now the same as that man in the parable: who's gonna listen?

Dolfan, even though I'm sure you were trying not to be, that sounded a bit judgmental... The problem isn't just in charismatic circles- there are sin problems in other denominations. IMO, the point is not to point a finger but to self-examine and to see how we are doing as individuals, how we're influencing our own sphere, and to watch each one's own life and doctrine. I hate to see division and finger-pointing, because it fails to recognize the problem in "the church" at large. There is a problem, and it isn't going away without a revival. Christians should be in love with Jesus and taking a stand for righteousness in the way that Christ did. Jesus was not wishy-washy, and we shouldn't be either.

J. Lee Grady is a messenger here- he wants people to recognize what is happening, and I don't think it is fair to insinuate he is responsible. There are those who fall and those who are nearby. It isn't fair to call those nearby the problem. Hank Hanegraaf has been nearby others who fell, and he has had problems of his own for years. But, I'm sure he means well.

All I can say is that it is truly sad and a tragedy that such a reproach has been brought upon the Kingdom by those that are supposed to be serving the Kingdom...

Jennifer Smith wrote:Dolfan, even though I'm sure you were trying not to be, that sounded a bit judgmental... The problem isn't just in charismatic circles- there are sin problems in other denominations. IMO, the point is not to point a finger but to self-examine and to see how we are doing as individuals, how we're influencing our own sphere, and to watch each one's own life and doctrine. I hate to see division and finger-pointing, because it fails to recognize the problem in "the church" at large. There is a problem, and it isn't going away without a revival. Christians should be in love with Jesus and taking a stand for righteousness in the way that Christ did. Jesus was not wishy-washy, and we shouldn't be either.

J. Lee Grady is a messenger here- he wants people to recognize what is happening, and I don't think it is fair to insinuate he is responsible. There are those who fall and those who are nearby. It isn't fair to call those nearby the problem. Hank Hanegraaf has been nearby others who fell, and he has had problems of his own for years. But, I'm sure he means well.

I respect that Rev. Grady is being a messenger. What he says is true. The issue is not who all has problems, though. You're right, many do. We all do, right? Some of us even have sin problems. That's the pinpoint of Grady's analysis -- that these ministries are acting sinfully, and that they and all who suppor them need a sobriety check, to put it kindly. That Hannegraaf has skeletons in his own closets is beside the point that Grady and Charisma magazine have benefitted directly by promoting those very ministries he now treats like they're radioactive. It looks to me like a 180 degree turn. Charismatic worship and church life are tied inextricably to these ministries. They have no real identity outside of them. Unlike old fashioned pentecostal faith, (if you just eliminate the sort of old-timey backwoods aspects of that faith, which is an unfair stereotype IMO), the charismatics are driven by and represent that God's favored tools are found in the theatrics, histrionics, financial trickery, imaginary doctrines pushed by supposedly supernatural personalities and all that .... mess. What I knew of pentecostal faith was old people, tried and true in the faith of Jesus, praying and fasting, reading their bibles and agonizing for others, and eating a lot of fried foods. They were poor or rich, they were educated and unlearned, they were smooth talking or couldn't speak half-proper English. But, good Lord, they were honest and they would give you what you needed and they would sit up with you all night and pray simply for God to move or bless or help or heal or whatever. They might speak in tongues, but they didn't use the latest catch phrases from TBN or blow on you or laugh like a hyena or tell of finding gold teeth, keys or anything else gold (good grief, they'd have had a heart attack and thought they were bound for hell if they'd had a gold anything ). And, they'd cry and they'd laugh and they'd just flat out care. They wouldn't take your money, but they'd offer you a little bit of the last of theirs as much as they could. They wouldn't ask for your money unless tragedy hit so hard they actually needed you, but what they needed most was you, and you were glad to share what you had with them because you were with them in whatever was befalling them. Where is any of that in TBN? Huh? And, when TBN was in its ascendancy and guys (flawed, warted guys ) like Hanegraaf were calling them on it 15 years or more ago, where was Charisma magazine then? Well, I'll tell you. They were doing cover stories in how wonderful Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland are, what wonderful ministry and the who's who of TBN is.

In 2005, at this link, they did an article on Fred Price. Oh, they did lip service to those who disagree with Price's message, but they let him assert his poison without directly challenging it. It was like watching CNN "grilling" Obama. So, for Charisma to now call for some sort of reform, well, it's just kind of laughable to me. And, even Grady's message stops short. You can't reform cancer. You kill it. Charismatic belief is a cancer. He doesn't recognize it that way. Instead, he offers,

Was it supposed to end like this? How did a movement that was at one time focused on winning people to Christ and introducing them to the power of the Holy Spirit end in such disgrace?

Really? Was that its focus? At what point on the merry go round did that focus get lost, sir? And, where have you been since that happened? For a guy who is putting himself front and center in some half-baked call for somber judgment now, would he kindly do us all the service of pointing out what he's done to sound that alarm since this thing started? I mean, he's the one concerned about the supposed wayfaring message that had a good starting focus. To hear him tell it, it was all just "mistakes and weaknesses". Yeah. When will he admit that he's been part of the problem?? Far as I can tell, he still is. So, no, I'm not really impressed by his effort now.

dolfan wrote: It was like watching CNN "grilling" Obama.

Sorry I didn't see that. Was it anything like Fox News "giving the third degree" to Karl Rove?

Tim Elston wrote:

dolfan wrote: It was like watching CNN "grilling" Obama.

Sorry I didn't see that. Was it anything like Fox News "giving the third degree" to Karl Rove?

The difference between those two? FoxNews is unabashedly, admittedly conservative, while attempting to allow opposing views to present counterpoint. CNN claims to be neutral.

I at least respect MSNBC for declaring they are partisan leftists.

Tim Elston wrote:

dolfan wrote: It was like watching CNN "grilling" Obama.

Sorry I didn't see that. Was it anything like Fox News "giving the third degree" to Karl Rove?

Oh, sure, I'll give you that.

These scandals are hardly limited to the charismatic community. The whole Christian communitty in America is scandal-ridden and backslidden. The "great" Hankl Hannegraf is a known plagarist who fired a staff accountant when she caught him with his fingers in the till. The most prominent baptist minister in the country (besides Billy Graham) Charles Stanley went through a divorce a couple of years ago. Kent Hovind is in jail for tax evasion... I could go on and on. The problem isn't charismatics, it is a church in need of reformation.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

No one here is saying it is ONLY charismatics that have scandal. However, that is what the posted article dealt with and what Jennifer asked us to address. It was not asked that we state our opinion on the state of the entire American church. I know all too well that may denominations and churches are having problems.

Jinjer

Here's what,
Most churchs don't have enough controls in place so things like this don't occur. There are relatively few, if any, controls placed over the reciepts of donations or expenses.

There are no true accountability groups for these ministers that lead such large churchs with affiliates spread all over the coutry.

People are making decisions based upon emotions and feeling for these leaders instead of sound logic.

Locks and controls aren't there to keep theives out...they are there to keep honest men honest.

You can't reform cancer. You kill it. Charismatic belief is a cancer. He doesn't recognize it that way.

dolfan, I was agreeing with you for the most part until this phrase...
I personally am pentecostal, or charismatic. If the movement started with pentecost or with the Azusa street revival, then I assume it started with the right focus! There many good churches and ministers that haven't gone awry. Those who have erred and gone astray and away from sound doctrine are the problem. If you haven't experienced a church like that, I know of a few of them! But, I could understand what you were saying and I'm sure Lee Grady understands as well. Perhaps Lee Grady wasn't called to be the Bible Answer man until this point. I think this article (he wrote a similar article concerning Bentley, also) is a move in the right direction because it has reached a point when there are ministries that God has apparently judged, and we should also note them and watch out for their doctrines. I appreciate your thoughts.